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To Application or Not to Application! That is the... no that's not the question, read inside


Morrigan
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So I was discussing this with some other RPers and I've had the same opinion about it for a while. This is a question about applications but not whether to require or not to require applications but actually about something a little more dangerous.

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Have you ever been asked to play a character and said "Yes... but you have to write the application for me?"

 

I'm well known for being an anti-application advocate but I've been on plenty of sites that use them throughout my entire billions of years of roleplaying. I've had quite a few roleplay partners, administrator friends... I mean loads of people. They enjoy me, they enjoy my quirky writing and they know that if they ask and I accept, no matter what I'll play that character well.

 

That's why they asked me.

 

So... I've said it on multiple occasions and on these occasions I state, "You write the app, I'll play the character."

 

Now the first thing that you think is "NO THAT'S PLAGIARISM!" but is it? Because I'm not taking credit for their work (but I also can't credit them because if I do the staff will know someone else wrote the app) but I also didn't take it without permission. The application was given to me to play a character that this person wanted played, I'm willing to play the character but I'm just simply not willing to go through the application process for.

 

Of course the debate is, "Well if you're not willing to write the app then you aren't invested in the character." Which is not a true statement. I'm invested in every character I create or play. Doesn't matter how or why I play the character, they become mine from the first word I type about them. It doesn't make me less invested in a story, a character or their plot. It just takes away one step from me and lets the person that needs/wants/loves this character to be played.

 

I don't find this any different than someone picking up a canon character and re-writing the words from a wiki about their history to play a canon character. In a way this is actually more personal because you aren't just picking up a canon, you're picking up a character that has value to someone that you enjoy writing with which makes the interaction more valuable overall.

 

I will state that I've done this about 6-12 times and the admins have never been the wiser (in fact I had an admin that did it for me once for their top wanted canon character.... still have the best memories of RDJ singing All the single ladies in his boxers because of that).

 

As an administrator, how do you feel about members creating applications for their RP partners/friends/people that want to play their wanted ads.

 

As a member, if you wanted it bad enough, would you do it?

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Disclaimer: I am not an administrator, but a lowly site janitor, so take my opinions with a large grain of salt

 

The idea of someone writing an application that someone else uses makes me uncomfortable. And the fact that "I also can't credit them because if I do the staff will know someone else wrote the app" are words that were even expressed makes me feel at least secure in knowing that my discomfort isn't unexpected. If it was okay for another member to write an app for someone, then it wouldn't matter if the staff knew or not, right? 

 

For me, part of the point of an application is to ensure that someone can write a character within the confines of the site rules. How could I know, as a staff member, that Player B is a good noodle that follows the rules if Player A is doing their writing for them? For example, what if a new player (Y) comes to a board with a word count and asks the one with the wanted (X) to write the app for them. Once the app written by X is accepted, Y begins posting, and can't meet the word count on any post.  Turns out, Y wanted X to write the application because Y knew they couldn't meet the application word count either.  (obviously this particular scenario isn't a problem if your site doesn't have that requirement, but I'm sure you could think of some other rule to substitute in.)

 

 

As a member, I HAVE had instances where I really, *really* want a wanted taken, but I wouldn't ever consider writing an app for them for someone else to just copy and past. Some person might say they'd be invested in the character even if they didn't write the app, but I only really have their word for it, don't I? And maybe I want to see THEIR interpretation of that character, instead of word for word my own. If someone isn't willing to write the app for the character, how do I know they'd be willing to write POSTS for that character? I don't know I can trust someone that far.

 

Additionally, I am very pro-app myself, and I tend to think that if someone can't put a character's personality or history into writing, then the character probably isn't as well-thought-out as they should be (especially my own. I make apps for characters I don't intend to play, just because that's the only way they become "people" in my head instead of just puppets).  The burden of making a character a person should fall on the one who will be writing them, since they're going to be writing the person. Otherwise, it feels more like they're taking someone else's person and turning them into their puppet instead. 

 

 

Edit to add: Working *with* the requester to create an app isn't the same thing as having the requester write the app, imo. Obviously the requester has a say in what is and what isn't the character's history/personality. But I still think the player doing the playing should be the one doing the bulk of the writing. 

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I work together with the requester if I take a wanted ad. Not because I can't write a bio alone, but because I want to have exactly the bio the requester wants, so write the character accordingly afterwards. 

 

I also am in favour, for a canon character (not that my site had such fandom canons) to use the wiki or something, listing what is known about the character  - with mentioning the source, of course - to make sure it will never be forgotten while writing the story, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. And for adopted characters, not to change the bio, but to credit the creator and mention the moment when the character got adopted and written by someone else. Having the new adopter write another bio would mean, in fact, changing the character and disrupting continuity. It should never happen.

 

Tl;dr: I have nothing against someone else writing the bio, as long as it is credited (or, in some cases, with permission. Because when the bio is done together, in collaboration, it's more a matter of permission than credit). It matters

- that the bio shows a fully developed character;

- that there is no plagiarism;

- that the writer who really writes the character in posts writes him according to the bio. (There had been cases when the same member wrote the bio and the posts, but when writing the posts didn't remember/ consult the bio and wrote the character according to the current mood, playing with him like with dolls, instead of keeping him consistent). 

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As an administrator, how do you feel about members creating applications for their RP partners/friends/people that want to play their wanted ads?

 

As long as I am aware it's being done, both people are good with it, credit is given, etc., go for it. I view it as the member vouching for the friend/writing partner so it is incumbent on them to do a good bio and keep that person engaged. Admin still has final oversight on the profile/application as well so the pair cannot really sneak anything in.

 

In the real world, actors and actresses play a character off a script someone else has written for them and that they interpret with the help of a director.

 

Also, some people just cannot write bios but they can write beautiful scenes in the story. In fact, I have a member or two that I help when it comes to writing out an application. They tell me about the character, I put it on paper, and they add or change what they want.

 

As a member, if you wanted it bad enough, would you do it?

No. This whole Wanted thing is new to me. I would be uncomfortable taking up a character I didn't create. I tried it when my friend left roleplaying and I was hung out to dry with a married character whose spouse's writer was gone. She gave her full permission for me to take over her character, but it was just...no. ;) 

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it makes me a bit uncomfortable, largely because I know there are folks who would steal someone else's work without asking and play that. Even with consent from the creator of the app, this feels too close for comfort. This feels a lot the same on the surface, and I'd have no way of telling the difference if I realized the app was not your writing. I'd feel best about it if I saw consent being given so as to be sure.

 

As a player I can't even imagine having someone else write an app for me and then playing that character.  It wouldn't feel like I own that character and would feel more like an adoptable (which I tend to avoid). If I wrote an app for someone else,I feel like I'd become too attached to the character I'd be writing in the process. I might not be comfortable letting someone else play it after that.

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As an administrator, how do you feel about members creating applications for their RPpartners/friends/people that want to play their wanted ads?

 

This is the first time I've considered this, but having thought it over a bit as an admin I don't see any legitimate downside to this.

 

  1. Very few players join sites with the sole intent to pick up a wanted ad, so the argument that an application is meant to 'measure their understanding of the world' doesn't hold much water. Most players will have created their own character and in doing so demonstrated that they're clear on the parameters in question. 
  2. Applications, at best, are a shallow measure of any well created character. They are a summary of that character from point A. The whole point of any story is character development in face of the changes and challenges they face. Characters are not meant to remain stagnant in any of the important application facets: personality, appearance, history. If a character progresses a year in a story line and is still identical to everything in that point A application, they're not being developed worth a damn, and at that point exemplify that Mary/Gary sues are not created, they are played. 
  3. Feeding from the above, I see it as a useful tool for ensuring a successful character adoption - and as an admin I've seen far too many 'wanted ad' characters fail, usually for the same reasons. Writing the app allows the individual seeking to have this character played in foil to their own ensures that they get what they're looking for. For both parties, it eliminates that uncertainty and doubt on whether or not the taker will be able to live up to expectations by giving them a base to build from, while doing absolutely nothing to prevent the taker from developing that wanted into a progressing, well rounded character. Like @DireWolfe mentioned, its just being given a script for the character. The writer still molds and plays their own interpretation of that based on the parameters given. 

 

As a member, if you wanted it bad enough, would you do it?

 

Yes. And I would be more willing to pick up wanted ads if it was an option. It sucks when someone picks up a wanted and doesn't play the character as hoped. It sucks just as bad picking up a character, failing to play them as wanted because no clear starting point/standard was set, and then being stuck with them stagnated because the person that posted the wanted loses interest. 

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6 hours ago, Bro said:

For me, part of the point of an application is to ensure that someone can write a character within the confines of the site rules. How could I know, as a staff member, that Player B is a good noodle that follows the rules if Player A is doing their writing for them? For example, what if a new player (Y) comes to a board with a word count and asks the one with the wanted (X) to write the app for them. Once the app written by X is accepted, Y begins posting, and can't meet the word count on any post.  Turns out, Y wanted X to write the application because Y knew they couldn't meet the application word count either.  (obviously this particular scenario isn't a problem if your site doesn't have that requirement, but I'm sure you could think of some other rule to substitute in.) 

 

Lets start with this. I didn't go to these people and say "I want to play your wanted ad, write me an app" they came to me and said, "I really want you to play this character" in which I replied "Meh... Not really interested in writing another app right now" and they said "I'll write you the app if you'll play them."

 

For me it's as easy as a transaction. They want me to do something for them and to get me to do it they write me the app.

 

The only reason I can't credit them is the exact reasons that have been stated in this thread already "people are uncomfortable with it". As I explained I've done it enough times that the staff never knows that I didn't write the app because once I write the character they are mine. I've particularly done this on sites that the app requires an RP post in which is the only part of the entire app I do myself. Even with that the staff couldn't tell the rest wasn't mine because at that point, credit or not, the character is my character.

 

6 hours ago, Bro said:

Additionally, I am very pro-app myself, and I tend to think that if someone can't put a character's personality or history into writing, then the character probably isn't as well-thought-out as they should be (especially my own. I make apps for characters I don't intend to play, just because that's the only way they become "people" in my head instead of just puppets).  The burden of making a character a person should fall on the one who will be writing them, since they're going to be writing the person. Otherwise, it feels more like they're taking someone else's person and turning them into their puppet instead. 

 

So that is a personal thing for you. As you clearly state "that's how they become "people" in your head" that's not how characters become people in mine. The moment my character has a face in my head they are stuck there forever. I learn things about them from their bones and that's what an app is, the bones of the character. From there they develop and change and their bones develop muscles and skin and etc (weird analogy I know but I'm tired).

 

3 hours ago, Kazetatsu said:

it makes me a bit uncomfortable, largely because I know there are folks who would steal someone else's work without asking and play that.

 

Two completely different wheel houses. This particular thing that I'm talking about isn't stealing because its not taking anything that isn't willfully given. It's no different to me as someone giving me a gift.

 

The other issue that you all are raising is that you'd be less uncomfortable if credit was given.... BUT would you even accept the app at all knowing the person that is about to author the character didn't write the app? Because that's the only reason why credit is given. I've come across too many admins that label that as plagiarism without actually considering that plagiarism is only copying from sources that isn't given credit OR permission. And in this case, permission is given.

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49 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

The other issue that you all are raising is that you'd be less uncomfortable if credit was given.... BUT would you even accept the app at all knowing the person that is about to author the character didn't write the app? Because that's the only reason why credit is given. I've come across too many admins that label that as plagiarism without actually considering that plagiarism is only copying from sources that isn't given credit OR permission. And in this case, permission is given.

 

I'm not the person who approves apps on our site, so my opinion means nothing here.

 

BUT, if I had my own site, no. I wouldn't accept the app if I knew someone else wrote it. Not because I think it's plagiarism (I don't. If the other person has permission it isn't plagiarism), but because someone else wrote it.  The point of the site is to write. Apps are writing too, and, in this case, I'd consider it part of 'the rules' of the board that to write a character, you write their app first.

 

If someone is "not really interested in writing another app right now", then that person probably shouldn't have the character. I can't imagine wanting anyone to write a character so desperately that I wouldn't wait for them to actually... want to write. If they don't want to write an app, why would they want to write posts? If they don't have the *muse* for the app, then do they really have the *muse* for the character? It doesn't make me uncomfortable for plagiarism reasons, it makes me uncomfortable for writing reasons. If I wanted to write the app myself and make the character completely myself, I'd just write them myself instead of giving them over to someone who didn't even want them enough to write the app. It is indeed a personal thing for me, and it is fully possible that my opinion is wrong.

 

---------------

Edited in 2 minutes later:

5 minutes ago, kita said:

And if someone said they would only take a wanted ad of mine if I wrote the app for them, I would never in a million years assume that they would keep the character active or actually want to write them. I'd think they were blowing me off or screwing with me. 

This was posted 2 seconds after mine, and is directly below me, so I'm going to repeat it. YES. THIS. Exactly this! These words were the ones I was looking for here!

----------------------------

 

1 hour ago, Dragon said:

I would be more willing to pick up wanted ads if it was an option. It sucks when someone picks up a wanted and doesn't play the character as hoped. It sucks just as bad picking up a character, failing to play them as wanted because no clear starting point/standard was set, and then being stuck with them stagnated because the person that posted the wanted loses interest. 

 

This point is a counter to my above (minus edited in content), but I feel like this issue could be solved by having the requester of the wanted play a role in the application acceptance process. Communication is key when taking a wanted regardless of who writes the app. But if the admins wait to accept a wanted's app until the original asker comments "I approve!", then this concern is mitigated (and that is how wanted's are handled on our site).

 

We have had people join the site specifically to take wanteds as well. That's kind of the point of posting wanted ads on directories like this one. And I agree that people can have characters that are Gary/Mary Sues after not developing them post-app, but I think apps ARE a good indication that someone has at least giving the character the bare minimum of thought before writing them ICly. If someone else writes the app instead, all it tells me is that THAT person thought about the character, not the person who will be writing them. 

 

 

Edited by Bro
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As an administrator, how do you feel about members creating applications for their RP partners/friends/people that want to play their wanted ads? Not gonna fly on my site. You want the character, you write the app, not someone else. Not to be rude, but I've never seen someone actively hide something they've done unless they know they shouldn't be doing it. I am fine with people co-writing apps if credit is given, because really, nobody writes a wanted app all on their own. There is always input and guidance from the requester. I am fine with a wanted ad giving a list of character traits and outlines of major points of the wanted character's history. But not with someone doing the entire thing for you. 


 

You say you're not taking credit for their work. But you're also not telling anyone else that you didn't write the app. Maybe it's just me, but if I post anything, I am implicitly taking credit for whatever I post as my own original content. And I have that view as an admin – if you don't credit someone else for your graphic edits, template, apps, whatever, I assume that you've done it yourself. If someone joined my site with an app someone else had written, and explicitly said "This is my app that is made up of my content", they would be banned if they were found to be using someone else's writing in their app. 

 

Even if content is taken with permission, for me plagiarism includes not only using things without permission/credit, but misleading someone about the source or author of your work. The literal definition of plagiarism is “the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own”, so if you're not explicitly saying “someone did this for me” and letting people assume you did it yourself... then I don't know, man, that's plagiarism to me. Even if you do have permission. 

 

You say that for you, this is the same as rewriting a canon character's wiki. But even in that case, you are rewriting, rather than claiming that content as your own. I think any admin would agree that someone directly copying a wiki would have their app rejected and be told to come up with something they write themselves, even if it is reworded. So why would it be acceptable for you to use an individual's work if you couldn't use a wiki's? 


 

Also I gotta ask... you said "I'm willing to play the character but I'm just simply not willing to go through the application process for." But you then say that you're invested in the characters you write even if you don't write the app. How can you be invested if you won't put in the effort to write an app? As an admin, part of the reason I require an app is so that I can make sure that they know how to balance strengths and weaknesses, and to make sure that their writing is at the same level as the rest of the site. 


 

As a member, if you wanted it bad enough, would you do it? Absolutely not. If I wanted a character that badly, I would find the time or inspiration or whatever to sit down and write an app. As a member or admin, if I ever found out that someone was using something I'd written without my permission and credit to me, they would be in massive trouble. I would demand my content be removed and that the member in question suffer some sort of consequence. Because I view that as stealing, and stealing is not okay. 


 

And if someone said they would only take a wanted ad of mine if I wrote the app for them, I would never in a million years assume that they would keep the character active or actually want to write them. I'd think they were blowing me off or screwing with me. Honestly, I'd also assume that they would have no problem using my content elsewhere without asking me. Both of the last two paragraphs are written in the general sense, rather than being directed at you and your situation. 

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7 minutes ago, kita said:

Absolutely not. If I wanted a character that badly, I would find the time or inspiration or whatever to sit down and write an app.

 

But that's the point. It's not a character I want. It's a character the other person wants ME to play.

 

I'm not talking about trolling through wanted ads and saying "I want to play this character, write the app for me." It's the exact opposite actually. It's not a character I found interest enough in to write an app for and someone wants to play with them bad enough, they enjoy writing with me and say "I'll write the app if you play the character".

 

As I've said. I've had administrators AND staff members do this before on sites I was on.

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8 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

 

But that's the point. It's not a character I want. It's a character the other person wants ME to play.

 

I'm not talking about trolling through wanted ads and saying "I want to play this character, write the app for me." It's the exact opposite actually. It's not a character I found interest enough in to write an app for and someone wants to play with them bad enough, they enjoy writing with me and say "I'll write the app if you play the character".

 

As I've said. I've had administrators AND staff members do this before on sites I was on.

 

Yes, I understand that people are coming to you rather than you going to them. But you're not picking up the character unless you want to write them, I hope... so why not write the app? Or just tell the person that you don't want to write the character at all. I also think it would be quite interesting if you addressed the other points I made in my post, as it might help further the discussion/others understand the situation better.

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20 minutes ago, kita said:

Also I gotta ask... you said "I'm willing to play the character but I'm just simply not willing to go through the application process for." But you then say that you're invested in the characters you write even if you don't write the app. How can you be invested if you won't put in the effort to write an app? As an admin, part of the reason I require an app is so that I can make sure that they know how to balance strengths and weaknesses, and to make sure that their writing is at the same level as the rest of the site. 

 

This bit? I've been an advocate for appless characters for years. I don't find that creating an application makes you invested in a character at all. In fact apps are my number one deterrent for creating a character. It's not that I'm bad at them or can't do them or whatever I just don't like them. I actually will not join a site that has a full app process anymore because I personally find them useless.

 

3 minutes ago, kita said:

But you're not picking up the character unless you want to write them, I hope... so why not write the app?

 

The best answer I have for this is "meh". I'm a people pleaser so if a friend of mine just really wants a character played I'll play them. It's the same reason I play male characters for my friends and RP partners that want a ship. I don't particularly like playing male characters but that doesn't mean I won't for a friend or RP partner because it's important to them its important to me.

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I actually do side with appless, or optional app myself.

 

but to answer the question of knowing an app wasn't made by the player and accepting it or not, I'd be iffy about accepting an app with a line 'credit to player' somewhere on it without questioning it,  but would be most ok with it if I saw proof of a paper trail, something like the conversation or a log of the conversation where the agreement was made, or if the player being credited vouched for it. That way I'd have more confidence that the consent was legitimate.

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Yeah I really love writing apps and need to write an app to figure the character out in my head. Then again I just need to have history and details down, I write canon characters too and I figure them out in my head by reading their canon lore, so that's the same thing to me as someone writing the app. I could probably write a character based off of an app someone else made if it were detailed enough. If the canon lore for that particular character isn't detailed I make it moreso lol... most of my apps turn into a series of one shots, and I write the personality last, so by the time I've apped the character, I've actually written several scenes of their life within the history and I know what their personality is like... lol...

I had members join and most of their app was basically info from the wiki, some of it copy and pasted. For a canon character I really don't care if the history is copy and pasted, I'd rather have the writer put the credit on the bottom for where they got the info though because it's annoying to have other members send the admin a message that is almost tattling "so and so copied this from the wiki", which has happened on my site. 

We have a character or two on our site who were "adopted" by another player when someone didn't want to play them anymore. I made them make their own new account and copy and paste the app over. Their app just says at the bottom "originally written by so-and-so". I really don't  care who writes it as long as they are using it with permission. 

Our site has apps but they are pretty easy going. People can write paragraphs upon paragraphs, which I usually do, or they can make a word list for personality and appearance, and a bullet point history of a few important happenings. What I basically want to see with an app is if a person knows where and how their character fits into the site lore, or if they need some handholding to figure out that particular space which kind of makes up a great deal of our RP


Would I do it?
Hm... I was going to say no, I don't think I would. Then again there have been some characters I've wanted to write and a friend has wanted to write, like characters who have had a long term relationship (elf couple who has been married for 5000 years), etc. Or human couple who grew up together, or something like that. And I so would take the initiative to write my characters app first (and have) which gives the whole history and backstory between these two characters, so the other writer has to just kind of take info from mine and that makes most of their own histories. I like them to take their own twists too, but I've set the heavy framework a few times because I've been into the plot. Not that they weren't into the plot, but maybe I was more into it, or someone just needed to sit and figure it out, and give them the opportunity to object. 

 

So that's similar... so maybe I would do it? xD

I don't know if I outright answered any questions but I did make myself think lol

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My opinion as an admin, is that if the person submitting an app that was written for them already has a character involved in the RP then I would be fine with it. If they are a completely new player, I would be hesitant only because apps/profiles are how we see examples of a players writing style. If it's someone already involved in the game, then we don't need that but for a new player, its somewhat important. I wouldn't absolutely say no, especially if a long standing player was the one who wrote it and was vouching for a new person. So I guess I'd say case by case basis really.

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