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The Fair Way to Kill a Character?


Kajes
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Here's the hypothetical...

 

You're playing on an RP forum that is sandbox-y but very character driven. All the players, new and old, have only one or two characters each, which they have invested a lot of time and energy into. Some of these characters were earned through IC means, meaning a player cannot easily create a character of a similar nature without investing significant time into the RP. There are guilds, families, kingdoms, and all sorts of drama-heavy and impactful plots abound between the whole character-base. The players are so interconnected on an IC level, that removing any one character - while not ruining the RP - would cause IC ripples that may become waves. Felt deeply and for a prolong period of time. The setting has some combat-focused elements, but the RP is not at all combat-centric. Yet, characters may kill other players' characters without OoC permission. Meaning, the character you have invested many hours and threads into, that you and others love very dearly, can be killed by another character before you're ready for their story to end. There is no means of resurrecting a dead character.

 

In this hypothetical, what sort of rules would you want to stand between a character and death? Throwing out the "OoC permission" rule altogether. I've contemplated this question for a long while, and am curious to see what other people think!

 

Leave it as a free for all, perhaps stressing "IC actions = IC consequences?"

Perhaps a "no-murder" time period for new players or characters, so people have to be invested in the RP before they can kill off well-established characters?

A form of voting system, if the character should be allowed to kill another in a given scenario? (This thought sounds far too much like a popularity contest type thing, and makes me cringe and twitch.)

A Game Master who (impartially, I hope) determines the "validity" of a given scenario, determining if the character should live or die?

A set of fair combat or "killing" rules, mechanics, etc.?

Would the possibility of IC or OoC ostracism, or even revenge, keep you - and others - from ever killing another character at all? The social pressure making it a non-issue?

 

I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts!

Edited by Kajes
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I don't understand why frowning upon a previous OOC agreement. Because some people might be wanting to kill or severely wound their characters, I have seen cases. I think the writers collaborating in writing their stories and deciding who lives and who doesn't is the best way.

 

I also kill in battles sometimes (in order to free the rosters for new characters) the characters whose writers have left for a longer time. This way the characters are out in a heroical way, and the remaining connected ones can mourn them or react in various other ways. Also their legacy remains, and the spirit of the story is also kept (because it would be unrealistic big battles with only no named NPCs killed in fight).

Edited by Elena
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I'm not sure there is a fair way to kill a character without the writer's explicit permission. And the only way I would personally involve myself in a site that did so would be if I was able to opt characters in/out of the 'safe to kill list'. Perhaps a section where characters that *can* be killed are listed, along with any preferences for the death the writer has would lessen any potential upset. I also think Discord would be a great asset to a community working that way, because you could introduce a bot to flip a coin or roll a die in battle/fight scenes to decide which blows land and who ultimately wins/loses. A fair ranking/battle/stats system would also be useful to make sure newbie weak characters are not coming in and getting a lucky roll that lets them kill a long standing character that should be able to swat them like a fly.

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5 minutes ago, Jones said:

I'm not sure there is a fair way to kill a character without the writer's explicit permission. And the only way I would personally involve myself in a site that did so would be if I was able to opt characters in/out of the 'safe to kill list'. 

I would argue that on a site that explicitly states in its rules that no OOC permission is required to kill characters, then the player signing up with a character is already giving their consent. 

 

The more rules you try to establish to make this a "fair" (subjective) environment where everyone can have their cake and eat it too, the less likely you are to get it. As soon as you leave the decision of killing another character up to people who aren't the ones playing those characters, things are going to become biased and unfair. Expectations are what need to be made available instead. 

 

Just spitballin' here:

"IC actions have IC consequences, meaning that characters may attempt to kill one another without first discussing it OOCly (though this applies to other actions as well, such as a character of authority stripping another of theirs). However, this does not mean that characters can automatically be killed. It cannot be written in a post that Johnny fired a bolt of lightning at Max, striking him in the chest, and disintegrated him. It should be written instead that Johnny fired a bolt of lightning at Max, thereby leaving the opportunity for Max to react to the attack. Failure to allow the other character a chance to react to the attack will result in x happening."

 

I would even go so far as to write out a thread wherein something just exactly like this happens, and then link it in that rule as a concrete example of EXACTLY what you want and expect.

 

I've played on and adminned sites like this before, and while having a bunch of rules doesn't help a bunch of specificity does. If it's just stated that "characters can kill each other without OOC consent" then you're going to have someone running around doing backflips off of swords, trying to decapitate people. I wish. I. Was. Joking.

 

Another thing: people need to have incentive to kill off their characters, especially if it would be difficult for them to get a new one of the same sort. All too often, all the glory is given to the killer and none to the dead. Turn that on its head, and players will be more amenable to the idea of killing off their characters, because while some people will "agree" to have their characters killed off for the greater good of the story or understand and appreciate the concept of reciprocity (I killed one of your guys, so you can kill one of mine), that isn't enough for everyone and it can suck to be one of the only people, or one of just a handful of people, who are killing off their characters for the sake of everyone else. Reward the people who lose characters. Give them a percentage of whatever it took to get that character in the first place back, or allow them another special character slot or whatever. There is concern that it'll get used up right away and flood the forum with a bunch of new special kinds of characters, but not everyone is going to off one character with one hand and make a new one with the next.

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I  honestly would be super annoyed if a character I played had to die based on another character's decision without any input at all from me. I think that writers should collaborate with one another and there shouldn't be some sort of rogue presence on the site just killing characters 'because they can'. Not a fan of that. 

 

However, I am totally fine with the idea of actions = consequences. Let's say you are running a rp where there's this certain part of the city that if you get caught stealing from a shop in, that the penalty is death. EVERYONE knows this policy because it's posted all over the damn place and is part of the lore of this part of the city. Character A goes wandering in and steals something poorly and gets caught.   Welp.  I mean, you know what you did there right? 

 

Another way to have 'characters can be killed at any time' work would be making sure that there's always the option to run away and take a 'lesser' penalty and basically lose the fight/your honor to save your own skin. So say Character A steals something poorly and gets caught, but he manages to cut off his hand so he can escape the handcuffs and runs off into the wilderness, thereby escaping. Oh but now he has a bounty for his head if he's ever caught in that area again, and bounty hunters may be coming after him for life for that sweet reward depending on how annoyed they are at his escape. Character A is now handless and on the run, congrats!

 

In a scenario where actions = consequences, if you don't want your character randomly killed, you stay away from those areas or people that might be unsafe. So you use your good judgement just like you would in real life (don't walk on the train tracks if you don't want to be hit by a train)

 

Also I really really like the idea of having incentives for dead characters to be dead. If it's an exp based game, maybe they get half their characters experience to apply to a new character. Maybe they get to keep half of the items the dead character had if they decide to play a relative of said dead character? *shrug*

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I really do think that communication is key here. like saying 'hey your character could die in this situation' or otherwise talking about it so that those involved know the stakes.

 

If I were in an rp where characters could die i'd personally appreciate safe zones, where I could establish things without that threat, I'd know once I left the safe zone my character could be at risk, but that way the risk would still somewhat be my consent.

 

I also appreciate the idea of writing a dying will of sorts, whether in the form of having control of my character's final moments, or having an ooc thread dictating how I would be willing to see them end, or handled after death, that way, even if I don't have the ability to say when, I'm not totally at other player's mercy.

 

I definitely like the idea of perks for the player of the dead character too, that way a dead character makes the new characters potentially stronger. the player has a chance to build up a character who is less likely to die the next time.

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If we're throwing out all OOC communication/consent options, the only thing REMOTELY close to "fair" that you're going to get is a full dice system. 

 

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On 2/21/2019 at 11:42 PM, Elena said:

...I also kill in battles sometimes (in order to free the rosters for new characters) the characters whose writers have left for a longer time...

 Are you saying you kill other player's characters, without their permission, if they're absent for too long? So that, if the player returned after that long while, they'd come back to a character that has died and been grieved for a long time before they returned?

 

"No-kill" lists or "safe to kill" lists, "safe zones," specifying that characters cannot be "automatically killed" but given the chance to respond to an attack to the player's wishes, "lesser penalties" to avoid IC enforced death penalties, and OoC threads dictating how a player will allow their character to die... These all read like variations of the OoC Permission rule. Ways to say, "Yes, you can kill my character without my permission...but...I decide if, when, and how my character dies. So...you really can't kill them without my permission, sorry." I think this is showing me that the OoC Permission rule may not be wide spread and deep in the RP community because it's the accepted norm and we're accustomed to it. But because the rule may be the best solution to this puzzle. At least, our best solution yet.

 

So far, the only real alternative I've seen mentioned involves stats, dice, and game mechanics.

Are numbers the only fair alternative?

Or, rather, would you trust stat n' dice game mechanics to be fair when it came to the life and death of your characters?

 

(I also like the idea of giving players incentives to allow their characters to die, or to smooth over the new character creation process for a replacement or follow-up character. Reminds me of a D&D-esque game I've heard about that had some unusual incentives that encouraged more reckless than usual play...)

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4 minutes ago, Kajes said:

 Are you saying you kill other player's characters, without their permission, if they're absent for too long? So that, if the player returned after that long while, they'd come back to a character that has died and been grieved for a long time before they returned?

 

Usually, those who leave and say they don't return, and they are OK with having their character killed. Or people who leave without replying any e-mails... and they are not likely to return after 8 months or more than 1 year...

 

In the rare case they return after 1-3 years, they understand from start that the story has moved without them and their character's place in the roster couldn't be kept indefinitely. Most of them want to read the death scene and they appreciate the heroism of their character's death, the subsequent necrologues and how they are remembered fondly by other characters. I was complimented by the way I am showing respect to characters who aren't there for a long time, and how on other boards, if a writer disappears, it is almost as if their characters never existed, while here they are fondly remembered and honoured.

 

Either the returned writer starts with a new character, or the story allows for a return of the character presumed dead. Actually, people rescued from shipwrecks and sea battles have happened... He has only to make a story where he had been for the 3-6-8 story months he had been absent. And for a returning character, that's new intrigues 🙂

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I've seen Hunger Games sites that used a dice and stat system, and that's pretty much the only way I can ever see it being "fair" if we're throwing out OOC consent.

 

And yes, the thought of upsetting people would keep me from killing other peoples' characters. I know I would haaate to have a character I had invested a ton of time and emotion into just up and killed without getting a say in it. I've played on games like that in the past, and even though there's an understanding that it can and will happen, a lot of people still ended up getting hurt and discouraged when their character's story was cut short. This often resulted in a lot of low morale when that stuff did go down. People who had lost their character would often feel sort of lost, like what now? They might even lose their drive for a while, or lose interest altogether. When you have a bunch of plots you're excited to do, and now suddenly you can't do them, it's discouraging. All those plots and relationships are just gone. And then the folk that killed the character end up feeling guilty. It's not fun. |:

 

Also, as a result, people end up playing more "safely". They take less risks. Plots are safer and more sanitized. I mean, go figure, if you're not ready to lose your character, you're not going to put them in risky situations. And that lack of risk is boring.

 

If it was a game where you rolled up characters frequently with a culture that death happens often and quick so come in prepared to make replacement characters, that's one thing. I've done tabletop RPs where we all had backup characters for that reason and were explicitly told characters will die often. But if it's like what you described where there's a lot of time invested in each character...oh fuck no, I wouldn't want any part in that system. That's effort that is potentially being pissed down the drain.

 

I prefer players feel comfortable taking big risks for the sake of compelling storytelling. This means that I'll never kill someone's character without permission, and that in my plots I always make sure the other character has a way to survive. I may be playing a villain who wants to, and can, kill your character, and my character may have yours good and cornered--but as the writer, I will use the world to my advantage to make sure your character comes out alive if that's what you want, while also doing my best to make sure it still feels authentically risky and frightening for said character. But more than anything, I want the other player to have fun, and if they're not having fun, what's the point?

Edited by Viscount Rhi-Rhi
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