Applications: Menace or Blessing?

[Skadi 36]

WELL! This took off much faster than I expected! 

 

That said, it'll be really hard to quote everything that I wanna ask about, so I'm just going to be a little general here. From what I have been reading about from the "no app camp" it almost seems like it's less about the app and almost more about how they are handled. If and admin is just declining you without actually discussing with you why you're being declined, that just sounds like you've had a run in with a very poorly handled staff team. I can't speak for everyone here, but I have never declined an app right off the bat, ever. Even with the people that have blatantly ignored the rules or ignored the lore, I usually just approach them privately and ask them about the issues I had with their app and work through what needs to be changed in a positive manner and suggest alternatives for things they're concerned to remove or alter.

The only time that I will usually ever "declined" an app is if their player absolutely refuses to conform to the plot/setting information and stops working with me. My reasoning for this is that if they can't respect the vision of the site and my position as an admin, they likely aren't going to mesh with the rest of the site. I am all for pushing the envelope and introducing chaos, but I am not going to allow you to retcon our history and lore just because you want your character to be the biggest, bestests whatever on the site. That said, I do very much believe that players are able to self-police and self-regulate themselves, and I am not their mother or their boss, but if they aren't willing to work with me, why should I work with them?

 

On the aspect of apps being "xxx amount of words" or whatever. I haven't used those kinds of apps in a very long time. I know the struggle of spending hours trying to thesaurus my way through the longest possible combination of words to explain basic personality traits. I definitely feel that on a cosmic level. That is why for the two sites I admin (one is a site that I co-admin but started as a member, and the other is my baby) I prefer to use the basic stat sheet (height, weight, playby, list three likes/dislikes/negative traits/positive traits, etc) with a freestyle app/shipper bit on the other side. I know the ugh on shipper bits, but our site doesn't really use the "shipper" part as a basic shipper but more like a "this is a glimpse of how my character treats friends/enemies/lovers" kind of thing. 

 

I am also one of those admins who treat the app as somewhat of a character audition. I like to get an idea of what kind of character I am allowing onto my site, whether they are lore/plot compliant, and, honestly, whether or not the way you write your character is going to hurt someone. One thing no one has really mentioned yet is triggers. As an admin, I feel like it's also my job to make sure that I'm not allowing people to write highly illegal things on the site without at least some kind of warning. My site is a high violence/sex/whatever site, but we draw strict lines on what kinds of things we allow (aka no freaking pedophilia or graphic depictions of incest) Maybe that's strange, but I would like to at least be aware of the fact that your character has homicidal tendencies or likes to skin people alive and stalk women. Not because I will necessarily decline you for that (whoo drama), but because I also know my players and what things can trigger them even when you as a player may not. 

Without an app, someone who can't stand writing in graphic mutilation could accidentally open your thread to reply to you and walk away crying and in crisis. At least with an app, accurate TW tags, and a proper place to find information about your character, they can make that kind of informed choice on their own. If that makes sense?

 

In my opinion, I feel like lack of apps on a site can either make it super creative or highly chaotic. I personally have seen both. I 100% believe you can have a good site with good players and a good system without an application, but I also believes that without that structure you also open yourself up to a lot more chaos and potential rule-breakers and bully players. With an app, I can get a glimpse of not only your character, but your process and get to know you. If you don't talk to me or anyone else while you're writing it, I'll tentatively assume two things: you're a very studious person and wanted to concentrate, or you came to the site with an already done concept and it's likely I'll have to be more careful when I read it to make sure that it's compliant to the site rules/lore. Thankfully, it's usually more the former than the latter. 

 

Anyway, this is a discussion so my next question is in two parts: 

- For no-app camp: "How do you manage the potential for rule breakers, potentially triggery things that can pop up in a thread without warning, and the potential for inconsistency without set perimeters? 
 ---- Bonus question: Is it super strict apps and overly critical apps that cause this dislike, do you think? If so, would you be more open to a more free-form app with more open staff willing to work with you instead of just stamping "no" on things?

- For the yes-app camp: "Do you think that there's a fine line between being too critical in your acceptance process and just wanting to be thorough about what you're seeing? 
----- Bonus question: Do you tend to prefer apps that guide you every step of the way (ie. providing a "how-to" or something on how to fill it out with guidelines and suggestions like lists for personality traits/pet peeves/etc) or ones that generally allow you the freedom to write whatever you want?

 

[Arceus 1,082]

Gonna be blunt, applications are permanently in my head as pointless drivel. You don't need an app. Apps need you.

 

Now, to address these questions here: simple. Respect your members and treat them like goddang adults. If someone has a problem with some kind of content, whatever that problem may be, let them figure themselves out and manage themselves enough to exit the thread, and tell their partner(s) what's up and work something out. If there's rule-breaking, deal with it when and where you see it. If there's lore issues, address them when and where you see it. It's just a matter of two things, letting your members also take care of the site and act like they've got some sense, and actually reading stuff on your own site. I'm on two sites with no app and neither has trouble enforcing their lore, or their rules, because the admins watch the site and the members do, too.

 

Personally myself, I just don't like apps because I find no bonus to them. There's nothing I personally can gain from them. My sites aren't better for having them. I'm not a better person for having to write them. I hate reviewing them because it's a lot of reading about a character I may or may not actually give a flip about. I'm too old to be spending all this time looking at applications that ultimately don't prove anything at all, or serve any real purpose, except maybe record things down so players don't forget something.

 

-shrugsie-

 

(Funny story though, I don't forget character stories. I may not remember if I ate today, but I can remember all 2,000 years of history of that one character I haven't played in six years. No, I'm serious. But I also know some people do forget things. If anyone's curious, most of the appless sites I'm on also offer an optional bio.)

[Shades 676]

How do you manage the potential for rule breakers, potentially triggery things that can pop up in a thread without warning, and the potential for inconsistency without set perimeters? 

 

I have to state here that I don't run a site atm, so I can only talk as a member. I know this will earn me some (many) side-eyes, but I don't do trigger warnings. I'm not gonna join a site that has them and berate anyone or break the rule. I just don't join sites that require them. Most of the sites I join have a general warning and threads tagged as mature, which I'm fine with. But triggers are a player thing, so I'd say that if that's an important part of a site, players should have a place where they can list their triggers and hard nos and people could talk about things before writing. Rule breakers are gonna break rules whether or not they can write a good app. Heck, they can have someone write their app for them (I have done it for a few people in the past and had people do it for me), they can take a long time crafting the perfect app and still break rules. Same when it comes to inconsistency. I am perfectly capable of writing a long and detailed app. I also know that once the character is in play, things happen and events change things, and no matter how much I wanted to write the character who was on paper, I'll end up writing something else that's close to it but not quite there. Basically, I don't believe my ability to stick to an exact bit-by-bit app will always reflect me as a player. I've had perfect apps accepted right away and been a horrible fit for sites, and struggled a bit more with the apps and been a great fit.

 

Is it super strict apps and overly critical apps that cause this dislike, do you think? If so, would you be more open to a more free-form app with more open staff willing to work with you instead of just stamping "no" on things?

 

Like I said before, I'm happy to introduce my character. I'll give any site a good paragraph on who they are, where they come from, what they do for a living, etc etc. And a list of important things that have happened in their lives. As long as I can present the information without going through a long list of 'describe every freckle (overly detailed physical descriptions when you already have a face) and everything your character thinks about everything in the world (likes and dislikes, for me, fall in there)', I'm cool. If it's the traditional app (Name, Age, personality, likes, dislikes, etc etc), I'll just x out of the site, no hard feelings and I don't think anything bad about the admins. Everyone (again) should run the site the way they see fit. If they need all of this info to sort the characters, then they need it. It's just not for me.

[Kit the Human 759]

How do you manage the potential for rule breakers,

You pull them up when they actually break rules, rather than treating everyone like a potential rule breaker 😉

 

potentially triggery things that can pop up in a thread without warning

This has nothing to do with apps though? That's your "how does this site deal with triggers" policy. On my (up coming app site) triggers and limits are in your OOC profile and are not part of the approval process. When I run without apps, it's still an optional part of your OOC profile. Also, you just tag your threads, because people ought to be reading each other's threads and should be able to pass on reading a topic if they want. (My belief.)

 

and the potential for inconsistency without set perimeters? 

This also has nothing to do with apps. You have lore. If someone breaks that lore, you deal with it appropriately.

 

A no app site full of chaos is not chaotic because of the lack of apps. It's chaotic because the staff didn't appropriately deal with lore or rule breakers. 

 

1 hour ago, Skadi said:

From what I have been reading about from the "no app camp" it almost seems like it's less about the app and almost more about how they are handled

 

Nah. In my experience, no appers just don't like having to do them. It's unhelpful homework for them. Doesn't matter how nice you are!

 

1 hour ago, Skadi said:

Do you think that there's a fine line between being too critical in your acceptance process and just wanting to be thorough about what you're seeing? 

 

No. You either treat all your newcomers as potential rule breakers or as good people capable of behaving. In my experience, an admin who is very critical or thorough is an admin who expects people to misbehave and thus maintain CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

 

I mean, this doesn't stop me. I know I'll toe the line and it's important to me to put an admin at ease. But the level critique you get is pretty indicative of the admin's mindset.

 

1 hour ago, Skadi said:

allow you the freedom to write whatever you want?

 

 

This is my preference. Just trust me not to be a dick and to be able to create a fully fleshed out character without needing my hand held. I trust you to rein people in if they start breaking lore or being OP post-app.

 

Edit to add: you know the most restrictive strict overbearing site I've been on didn't have apps. Staff just read threads.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kit the Human

[Keaton 133]

22 minutes ago, Skadi said:

Do you think that there's a fine line between being too critical in your acceptance process and just wanting to be thorough about what you're seeing?

 

Yes, I think that line can be exceptionally fine. When I was younger, I ran a game with an app so strict that it now makes me cringe. It was a popular game and lasted a very long time, but in retrospect I have to assume that those were owing to things other than the app. I've since run a game where we allowed multiple revisions and worked with people as long as they didn't act like jerks about it, and I honestly saw no appreciable difference in quality or quantity of play. I am now to the point where essentially, as long as you're not an asshole, I will work with you to get your app where it needs to be in terms of game expectations.

 

I think that's probably another thing that I haven't seen mentioned, at least not quite on those terms (although I might have missed it) -- From an admin perspective, apps let you lay down expectations, and the player knows going in what they can expect with regards to character development and writing skill. Obviously as we've seen here, it's not for everybody, but I like having that clear communication right from the start.

 

31 minutes ago, Skadi said:

Do you tend to prefer apps that guide you every step of the way (ie. providing a "how-to" or something on how to fill it out with guidelines and suggestions like lists for personality traits/pet peeves/etc) or ones that generally allow you the freedom to write whatever you want?

 

I don't understand apps that have meme/survey type questions that don't apply to the setting. I remember a game once that was kind of like a version of hell or purgatory, and characters had to list their sins because they had to work them off. That to me makes sense. Having to list out likes/dislikes, pet peeves, etc. just seems pedantic to me, though. That said, as an admin, I've found that the best way to get the type of answers I need is to ask some questions specific to the setting -- How do you picture the character fitting into this world, what are your goals for them, etc. Some people include that stuff regardless, but a lot don't, so it avoids having to ask after the fact. That said, the game I am putting together right now, I'm pretty well settled on free-form with some guidance as to what we're looking for, to try and get a happy medium.

[Huskerdust 625]

6 minutes ago, Skadi said:

For no-app camp: "How do you manage the potential for rule breakers, potentially triggery things that can pop up in a thread without warning, and the potential for inconsistency without set perimeters? 
 ---- Bonus question: Is it super strict apps and overly critical apps that cause this dislike, do you think? If so, would you be more open to a more free-form app with more open staff willing to work with you instead of just stamping "no" on things?

 

So I'm in the no-app camp and it is not a new thing for me. I originally come from MUCK RPs, moved on to Myspace, and then made the jump to forum RP. In a chat style RP, there is no app. You just picked a character (I only played canons in video game or anime fandoms at the time) and played them. There would be a roster, sure, but it was understood if you were a fan and you were in the group chat, then you probably knew SOMETHING about the game and character. And if not, you were kicked. Like, no big deal. 

 

Myspace, same deal, really. There was no APP. You just chose the character you wanted to play, made an account for them and dressed it up as you liked with HTML and CSS. You'd choose theme songs and write blogs and you'd friend accounts in the same fandom. I think Myspace RP was a bit like Tumblr RP now, in that you could choose to interact with multiple accounts of the same character or choose singular ones in a group setting. I preferred joining a group and being the only X character interacting with others in the group who were the only Y character and Z character, if that makes sense. It got too weird for me to RP, like, Takaya from Persona with 12 Chidoris and 9 Jins. I'd rather pick one Chidori and one Jin and focus on them. 

 

Anyway so when I moved to forum RP, it was private with just a couple friends. And we had BIOS, yes. But they were filled in as we played a character, not BEFORE we played the character. When I ran my Fire Emblem site, no apps. People would just sign up as our Ike or Boyd or whatever and they'd be noted in the Canon List. What they chose to write in their profile was totally up to them. Honestly, probably because of the environment of RP I come from, I never really hated how people played their canons. Because people have different interpretations and I just went along with theirs. I don't recall ever playing against somebody and thinking "Well, damn, their version of Ike is not Ike enough for me, so you have to leave!" No, I just appreciated their version. And most people didn't ruin their canons for me (back then, but that's another topic). 

 

I kinda hate how canon characters are treated in forum RP now because it's like... they're basically going to rip the Wiki of them or rewrite it in their own words. Boring. I already know that shit, it's out there, it's common knowledge. And nobody wants to write that shit and nobody wants to read it. Okay, maybe not NOBODY but I don't. I don't have the time or motivation. If I want to write a canon, I want to write it doing new things, not rehashing old shit.

 

I understand, however, WHY a lot of fandoms DO require apps. I just don't agree with it and it's not my cuppa tea. But I understand that different admins run different forums under different rules. I don't join what I don't like, so there's that.

 

I tried apps for a while on some original sites but I haaaaaated them. I always had to have a specific member of staff do apps because I just didn't caaaaare about them. And then I realized... I don't have to do it just because everybody else does. So... I dropped apps. I stopped doing them. They never worked for me and my past told me that a site can work just fine without them. And at the time, I had really started self hosting my sites and I had sub accounts and profile fields so... I just had profiles. Fill in what you want to, leave out what you don't care about, then start plotting and writing! Let's go!

 

I LOVE this style. Especially back on my Fire Emblem site. We had blended in a failed original fantasy from Jcink into it and it FLOURISHED there. The players kept secrets about their characters that unfolded during the course of play and omg, my ever-loving heart just loved it oh-so-much. It was like being a PART of a video game and experiencing the shocking twists and turns but also having characters in the world who ALSO shocked people. OMG, that character turns out to be the child of THAT character?! They have a curse on them, THAT'S why they act that way?! It was so much fun. I miss those days. 

 

Now, I still run my sites without apps but it seems the idea of withholding secrets isn't as prevalent in games with RL faces. I am not sure why exactly... It might just be the way a story is told when you're imagining it as a video game or an anime versus a movie or TV series? I really don't know but it's interesting. 

 

Anyway, for the quoted questions above: my sites don't tend to really have a lot of rules. Mostly, it's just "don't be an asshole" (written as RESPECT EACH OTHER) and stuff like don't use templates in RP posts. The rest is like... notes, like "we don't have an app, no word count, etc" which aren't even really rules, actually. Just a run down of... the NON rules we have. Haha! But yeah, the biggest thing is, respect each other and if somebody's gonna be a freakin' dick, they're out. I don't need 25 rules to back me up. It's my site. If I don't like what you're doing or you're being a jerk to my members, you're out. Simple as that. I'm not going to sugarcoat it with a rule like "You didn't follow rule #11 so I have to warn you, three warnings and you're out." Naaaw.

 

Triggery content is a tricky thing for me because I fully believe in self policing. You open a book, you might get a scene that upsets you. Please close the book and don't read it anymore. I don't take triggers lightly but I do think people expect WAY too much out of admins or other players to ensure THEY aren't triggered. I state in my games that you can use your OOC profile to note any triggers you have or no-gos and it falls under the respect rule for other members to not do those things with that member. But we're adults and I'm not going to force people to tag every single nonsensical thing in the world on the off chance SOMEBODY in the group might read it and be triggered. So my sites aren't for the easily triggered or people who need content warnings. But I'd never ever force another person to write something they're not comfortable with. At the same time, I'm not going to hold MYSELF or other members back from reaching deep down and writing whatever plots they want. I've dealt with people being uncomfortable with the things I write in the past and it's as simple as this: don't like, don't read. If you click into a thread and it turns out to be something that upsets you, close the window. Don't read it. Nobody's forcing you to read it!

 

Inconsistency can bother some people. It doesn't bother me. I see everybody's version of events as pretty realistic. We all view the world differently. Why can't our characters? And there's never been any blatant world breaking inconsistencies in my games because the important details are in the information area and I try to keep that stuff short and sweet. So far, so good. 

 

As for strict apps or critical admins... that is a turn off, yes. But no, that's not the reason I don't like apps. Haha. Read the novel above! But yeah, no. I just don't like apps. They are not for me and I most likely won't join a site that has one. That's nothing against those who need their apps. There will always be different approaches to hobbies, and I think it's more important to do your own thing that you are most comfortable with, whether that be having apps or not having them, than it is to try to cater to EVERYBODY. More harm than good comes from that and honestly? I think an admin will be much happier attracting like minded players to their games than they would be trying to bend over backwards doing all the things people on resource sites say they do. You know? 

 

So TL;DR: I do me, you do you. 

[Jaxx 317]

Do you think that there's a fine line between being too critical in your acceptance process and just wanting to be thorough about what you're seeing? I don't think it's that fine a line, to be honest, but also I'm kind of lax with the things I pend for. If it doesn't have a sitewide impact, or raise significant questions to me as I review the app, then I usually don't bother. How a character got a leadership position could easily make a difference for faction development/site history (or even be lore-breaking). How a character got a job or why they chose their apartment isn't important unless, like, your character was a convicted mass murderer who became a famous doctor without anyone knowing who he really is. But on my fandom site, most characters are canons, so the important stuff is laid out, or they're OCs with relatively simple and straightforward apps. 

 

Do you tend to prefer apps that guide you every step of the way (ie. providing a "how-to" or something on how to fill it out with guidelines and suggestions like lists for personality traits/pet peeves/etc) or ones that generally allow you the freedom to write whatever you want? I have seen very few apps that are so complicated or have so many feels that they would require a guide to fill out accurately. Most of them are freeform, or personality/history/appearance, with some fields for age, sexuality, species, job, etc. And I can't see how someone would need help filling out something simple like that tbh? But also there's a difference between, to use your example, "admin provides a few links to personality trait lists" and "member asks in the server what kind of personality their character should have". Former is something I wouldn't use but could be helpful for other members, latter tells me that you need site input and applause every step of the way and/or have no idea what character you want to write. Neither of those bodes well for anyone involved, in my opinion. 

[Yona Carlin 44]

Whether or not you have an app isn't going to magically make people follow the rules; I deal with rule-breakers the same as anybody else. I let them know what they did was not cool and ask for them not to do it in the future, or else they'll be removed. Our site doesn't use trigger warnings (other than marking smut threads with [18+] due to the rules of our fleet) although they're certainly optional. So people are inconsistent. Handwave, handwave. Focus on the story and set lore that you're interested in. Don't worry about some random who's going off the walls. I'm honestly fine with filling out apps, I've done it millions of times, I have 'apps' for my main characters on my own site and they're quite detailed. But yeah, I find them pointless so I don't force potential members to slog through a huge essay-style process. I hate doing them so I'm not going to make everybody else do them.

[Dragon 673]

"How do you manage the potential for rule breakers?"

 

Well, to be blunt, by performing my designated function as an administrator.

 

I interact with my members. I follow the threads they create - just as much to ensure that everything is kosher as to be proactive and seek out potential plot tie-ins or even expansions, following what my members are doing and enjoying so I can better formulate an experience they can appreciate and enjoy. Broken rules get addressed and corrected as needed.

 

What I do not do is assume that my players aren't intelligent/smart/skilled enough to take the lore and assimilate it into a functional, well developed character without someone looking over their shoulder like they're a child with a particularly sharp pair of scissors. 

 

Completing an app has literally nothing to do with, and no relation to, one's ability to follow rules or even adhere to lore. Quite frankly, trying to equate the two is just lazy. 

 

"Potentially triggery things" 

 

As others have already mentioned, "triggery things" have jack all to do with the app process. To begin with, 'trigger' is such a subjective term that it has no real meaning. Anything can trigger someone. I've been subjected to a very long winded rant by an individual who was "triggered by triggers". 

 

Sensitive and Mature subjects, as with the issue addressed above, should be handled by staff by paying attention to their site, their members, and the overall atmosphere. 

 

That said, no one is paying us RP admins to babysit. 

 

"Potential for inconsistency without set perimeters?"

 

Again, this has nothing to do with apps. Parameters are set within rules and lore. 

 

Again, ensuring lack of inconsistency falls down to performing one's job as a staff member or administrator. Read what your members are doing. Interact with them. Make sure members have a way to report lore breaking and inconsistencies. Members can submit a stellar, perfect app and still proceed to piss all over a site's rules and world building. 

Is it super strict apps and overly critical apps that cause this dislike, do you think?

 

No. I've been role playing for twenty years now and never once had an app refused. 

 

What I have seen on many occasions are staff who peruse and accept an app that they didn't really read all that carefully - then turn around and try to implement rules or lore that contradict things they've already allowed to slip by because they weren't paying attention. Yet, somehow, they usually make this the player's fault. 

 

[Morrigan 1,826]

To be clear, and this will hopefully throw you for a loop @Skadi I actually have a full fledged formula for how to create an application that will always be accepted and it has a success rate of being accepted the first time about 97% of the time with absolutely no edits. The fun part about it is the 3% of people that normally pend or deny me are the people that are nitpicking and not actually reading the character application.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

prefer to use the basic stat sheet (height, weight, playby, list three likes/dislikes/negative traits/positive traits, etc) with a freestyle app/shipper bit on the other side. I know the ugh on shipper bits, but our site doesn't really use the "shipper" part as a basic shipper but more like a "this is a glimpse of how my character treats friends/enemies/lovers" kind of thing. 

 

But that's the point. Most of these details are weird to me. How in the hell do I know the likes and dislikes of new character? What do you consider a positive and negative trait (I even used in a previous post how some people span the same trait between these to fluff their numbers). I mean I it doesn't really give a "glimpse" of anything except provide plot opportunities which... at the end of the day is still the burden of the player and not the admin staff.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

I am also one of those admins who treat the app as somewhat of a character audition.

 

This actually just proves the point that it's a resume and that I'm interviewing to become a member of your site. How does that not equal job?

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

One thing no one has really mentioned yet is triggers. As an admin, I feel like it's also my job to make sure that I'm not allowing people to write highly illegal things on the site without at least some kind of warning.

 

To parrot what a few others have said but to be clear, it's not your job as an administrator to understand the mental health of your members, nor are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist and able to even start to assist someone in taking care of their mental health. As an administrator it behooves you (but is not required) to facilitate an environment that someone with mental health issues can assimilate into if that is the environment and player base that you believe you want or have by providing a way for an end user to express things that they would like to avoid. Triggers in and of itself are unique to individuals and it is impossible to properly facilitate an environment that is trigger free for any single user, let alone multiple unique individuals.

 

I have found a recent trend of rules reading that I have found amusing, "Standard triggers must be listed in the thread description" or similar variation thereof in which I don't know what would be considered a "Standard Trigger". Sometimes these same rule sets provide things like "rape, incest, molestation, blood, gore, etc" and then I'm lead to believe I'm supposed to know what etc means which I don't.

 

As someone that doesn't have triggers knowing what triggers someone else has is basically impossible without them expressly telling me.

 

For example, I used to have a staff member that was triggered by images of sharks but didn't care if sharks in general were discussed (shameless plug because it's shark week). I didn't know that and I'm huge into monster movies, especially shark monster movies. Sharknado being one of my favorites, and I posted images constantly that included sharks. I didn't even find out that she had this trigger until months upon months after I posted my first shark image because she handled her trigger responsibly and closed the window any time it came up. She only told me because we were in a private conversation and I was talking about a shark movie I had recently seen and I was going to post an image and she requested that I didn't and explained it to me. I didn't even know a shark could be a trigger until that moment.

 

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

In my opinion, I feel like lack of apps on a site can either make it super creative or highly chaotic. I personally have seen both. I 100% believe you can have a good site with good players and a good system without an application, but I also believes that without that structure you also open yourself up to a lot more chaos and potential rule-breakers and bully players. With an app, I can get a glimpse of not only your character, but your process and get to know you. If you don't talk to me or anyone else while you're writing it, I'll tentatively assume two things: you're a very studious person and wanted to concentrate, or you came to the site with an already done concept and it's likely I'll have to be more careful when I read it to make sure that it's compliant to the site rules/lore. Thankfully, it's usually more the former than the latter. 

 

This is a fully disproved theory of apps, thus why I explained that it was an archaic form of elitism earlier in the thread. Applications weren't made to weed out "rule breakers" they were made to weed out the fan fiction  "Mary Sue" and it actually turned out that applications actually perpetuated Sues more than no applications did because a Mary Sue is played not made. An application, by your own admission, is an audition to joining a site which means that you must write your character in a way that is acceptable to the staff overall and the rules and information are apparent on what is acceptable and what is not. It's not until the player starts posting about their "violet orbs" and how "everyone is staring at them" that a Sue is truly detected.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

- For no-app camp: "How do you manage the potential for rule breakers, potentially triggery things that can pop up in a thread without warning, and the potential for inconsistency without set perimeters? 

 

• A rule breaker will find a way to break the rules regardless of an app.
• Triggers should be the burden of the players not the staff as explained above.
• Parameters are set by rules.
• Inconsistency is as easy as a thread edit after a PM from a staff member.

I won't elaborate really beyond that because I believe a few others above me have more concisely explained the what and how this works than I will.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

 ---- Bonus question: Is it super strict apps and overly critical apps that cause this dislike, do you think? If so, would you be more open to a more free-form app with more open staff willing to work with you instead of just stamping "no" on things?

 

No. I've been roleplaying for over 23 years. I'm exhausted with having to wade through what I consider roleplay bureaucracy and to jump through the million admin hoops and touch my nose and say the alphabet backwards to get to the point that I can write with a group of people. I mean when you're enthusiastic and you want to get playing just the waiting period alone is killer because in some, in fact many, environments it can take between 1 day to a few days for an admin to even look at your application. At that point I probably could have been well into a thread or completed one by then.

 

As I stated at the beginning of this thread I have a formula for getting applications accepted. The type of application doesn't matter overall. It's all a resume at the end of the day when all I want to do is art.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

- For the yes-app camp: "Do you think that there's a fine line between being too critical in your acceptance process and just wanting to be thorough about what you're seeing? 

 

The line isn't fine. Its big and black and solid. For the most part I've found that most admins don't really read an app they skim it. I had a site that I was on that my werewolf character stress smoked and it was in the super detailed application that included things like "habits" (what do you know?). And to me it made sense, with hyper senses, especially with a creature that can live a long time with all the smells of history (piss and shit and rot in the streets etc) that they would pick up a specific smell habit and there wasn't anything in the lore that stated otherwise and I had plenty of reasons for my character to not be bothered by the smell (re: the 60-90s). Overall it made sense for the character and not just that smoking in general (just like drinking beer) is an acquired taste. I don't know a person alive that has liked either straight off the bat. I'm rambling, sorry. So I actually used it in a thread and all the sudden I was getting a message from the administrator in the general chat where she berated me and told me that smoking would be so uncomfortable it would be psychically painful for my character to smoke, they wouldn't be able to do it. I pointed out that this was in my application and they told me that I had to remove it and that my character can't smoke!

 

To me this was actually the reverse of what you're describing. My application was accepted and I was told my character was acceptable and then I was told after the fact that it wasn't despite complying to rules and lore. I mean I was so compliant with the sites lore and application process. I broke no rules and yet I was still the asshole even though it was the staff's mistake that they didn't catch that in the application process and explain to me this behind the scenes lore that was no where to be found.

 

3 hours ago, Skadi said:

----- Bonus question: Do you tend to prefer apps that guide you every step of the way (ie. providing a "how-to" or something on how to fill it out with guidelines and suggestions like lists for personality traits/pet peeves/etc) or ones that generally allow you the freedom to write whatever you want?

 

Lists and things are an even larger turnoff in apps in general. I recommend reading this thread:

 

Even for people that like apps they all have pet peeves of what they really hate to write or detail in an application and is the whole point of that thread.

[Somniac 207]

As one of the admins on an app-optional website with multiple people who have triggers (not to be confused with shit we don’t like, which frankly is also deserving of respect), I’ve got words for both sides here.

 

Spoiler

 

The term ‘triggered’ is not meaningless: it is trivialized. ‘Triggered’ does not mean someone makes an angry comment because they hateread something that a reasonable person wouldn’t have exposed themselves to. ‘Triggered’ is a medical term that refers to psychological, emotional, and physiological symptoms. ‘Triggered’ is when someone re-experiences a traumatic event in ways that will not always be obvious to themselves, let alone bystanders. A war vet in my family used to break into profuse sweat whenever he heard fireworks, despite being calm and knowing it was just a flashback. There are real physical ramifications to this word that many people have not heard used with its actual meaning.

 

There’s a reason we go with “content warnings” - it addresses topics generally understood by the public to be potentially disturbing and/or controversial content (IE similar to TV ratings) and does not force someone to disclose a personal aspect of their mental health that (clearly, from this thread alone) has a lot of stigma around it. We do not need to babysit or have a psyche degree to highlight “content warning,” right-click, and find out what constitutes as common content warnings. In fact, here’s the very first Google result.

 

Content warnings are an accessibility aid. If you mentioned not wanting to deal with blind people on your site, most of us understand that while no one’s obligated to make a site screenreader-accessible it’s still a shitty move to be outright dismissive about people who need it. Same deal should go with trigger warnings.

 

P.S. Despite my chafing about app sites, I’ve enjoyed plenty of them. I think it’s just a culture difference at this point, and might be a better tool for admins who are otherwise shy about first points of contact.

 

TL;DR: Stop mixing ‘triggered’ and ‘do not want’ up, one is an accessibility issue and the other is a communication issue. P.S. App or no app is basically site cultural differences.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Morrigan
Edited for accuracy.

[Morrigan 1,826]

12 hours ago, Somniac said:

As one of the admins on an app-optional website with multiple people who have triggers (not to be confused with shit we don’t like, which frankly is also deserving of respect), I’ve got words for both sides here.

 

The term ‘triggered’ is not meaningless: it is trivialized. ‘Triggered’ does not mean someone makes an angry comment because they hateread something that a reasonable person wouldn’t have exposed themselves to. ‘Triggered’ is a medical term that refers to psychological, emotional, and physiological symptoms. ‘Triggered’ is when someone re-experiences a traumatic event in ways that will not always be obvious to themselves, let alone bystanders. A war vet in my family used to break into profuse sweat whenever he heard fireworks, despite being calm and knowing it was just a flashback. There are real physical ramifications to this word that many people have not heard used with its actual meaning.

 

There’s a reason we go with “content warnings” - it addresses topics generally understood by the public to be potentially disturbing and/or controversial content (IE similar to TV ratings) and does not force someone to disclose a personal aspect of their mental health that (clearly, from this thread alone) has a lot of stigma around it. We do not need to babysit or have a psyche degree to highlight “content warning,” right-click, and find out what constitutes as common content warnings. In fact, here’s the very first Google result.

 

Content warnings are an accessibility aid. If you mentioned not wanting to deal with blind people on your site, most of us understand that while no one’s obligated to make a site screenreader-accessible it’s still a shitty move to be outright dismissive about people who need it. Same deal should go with trigger warnings.

 

P.S. Despite my chafing about app sites, I’ve enjoyed plenty of them. I think it’s just a culture difference at this point, and might be a better tool for admins who are otherwise shy about first points of contact.

 

TL;DR: Stop mixing ‘triggered’ and ‘do not want’ up, one is an accessibility issue and the other is a communication issue. P.S. App or no app is basically site cultural differences.

 

Please re-read this part of my post:

 

18 hours ago, Morrigan said:

To parrot what a few others have said but to be clear, it's not your job as an administrator to understand the mental health of your members, nor are you a psychologist or a psychiatrist and able to even start to assist someone in taking care of their mental health.

 

To be completely clear, we fully understand that "triggers" are valid. However, it should be equally clear that, unless you have an advanced degree in psychological sciences - and you are making a conscious choice to utilize that education & training to treat and take responsibility for your members as patients - then it is actually detrimental to attempt to assist those with psychological unwellness in a way that has not been approved by a mental health care professional. Attempting to do so without the appropriate qualifications is both unethical and irresponsible.

 

People need to seek professional help and not utilize their RP for this assistance.

 

Additionally, this has nothing to do with this thread so it drops here. If you're further interested in this subject then please start a separate thread.

[Mab 58]

I think for me (and this comes from both a member and an admin i suppose) I hate to love them. As a member the majority of applications i have seen i hate with a passion, why? Because they are asking questions that i don't even know fully about myself. I don't want to have to spend hours sitting there contemplating my likes or dislikes, or my quirks. I don't want to have to research what an MBTI? (Is that what it is?) or what types they are just to decipher where my character falls. I don't want to list five things or what they ate for their breakfast. I want to be able to give what i want to give and nothing more, or nothing less. Yes as an admin you want to see if they can fit into your lore, but you don't need all of this to know that. You don't need all of that information to have a well rounded character.

 

I have characters i rework over and over again for different sites. I know them back to front, so yes i could easily add those to an app, but for a new character? i don't want to add that thought, not because im being lazy, but because they are ever changing and adapting, what they like at the start doesn't mean they like now. 

 

Also don't get me started on histories, hate them with a passion, again why? because most want EVERYTHING. Every little detail, Right down to why your characters father was a bad father. They want to know everything and for those old characters? It gets real boring real quick. 

 

Personalities? hate them to because i don't feel like i can quiet convey what i am trying to get across, so i just end up rambling on and on and in the end? the character again changes and develops. You start playing them putting them in threads and they are not that character you thought you were making.  

 

Half of the things i find in apps these days i would much prefer to do in development boards as and when i learn them, or if i want to. 

 

Most of my apps turn out to be thread starters, they give enough history of the character, but can easily be used as an opener thread. 

 

From an admin perspective though i have done apps sites, i have done no app sites, i have done profile sites, and do what you want sites. I have even done plot page only sites.  I see a lot of people saying that no app sites mean you have law breakers and lore breakers. The same can be said with members who read apps and use that information when thier character wouldn't know it. You deal with it the same way you would an app site. See it and put a stop to it.

 

As an admin though i found that members made no app (even though there was an option to do a character sheet) and then made no plotter either and complained they wasn't getting plots. Which how can one get plots when no one knows anything about your character bar their name and age, and species and every plot is being shot down. 

 

Which is why i went plotter only. You did a plotter, which was basically what do you want for your character and your time here. You could give us information if you wanted but you didn't have to.

 

My newest site? iv gone back to my roots. Gone with an application site.  Honestly, as long as your not breaking the lore of the site (which is hard to do) your going to sail by. Do i read an app word for word? not really (but then i dont read a book word for word, im a skimmer and i admit it). I use apps to learn a little more about a character, a way to figure out plot points a little easier and i love reading apps more than i like writing them. 

 

We are free style because i don't care what you give us. Give us whatever you want, and i you want more structure give us more structure, if you want less and wanna just say they were born and do bad things, give us that. Role play is for enjoyment. It is down to you as an individual, do you and you will attract like minded people. We can't please everyone and everyone has their way or doing such. 

 

I feel like i went on a real long spiel - but basically i hate to love them and love to hate them.

 

 

[Prophetess 137]

Profiles/Apps/Bios - all the same for me so I will just stick with App for the time being. 

 

Speaking as an owner, I like to think that our App is pretty easy. Just the basics on the character. I also allow (not often seen) for edits after approval because I know that sometimes we change our character because play shapes them. I only ask that if there are changes that staff is notified. We've woked on the honor system and it's worked out. Also with only asking for the basics that means that the member can write as little or lot as they want. Apps to me are an overview or summary of the character, not the life story of the character.

 

I also don't see it as a deterrent about breaking rules or proving about lore. Most will ask if they don't understand. I've seen more read over things to see if the ideas fit together. Rule breakers are dealt with simply enough. An app doesn't change that. If someone is really interested in the site, they will ask. Test the waters in the cbox/Discord. It's usually easy to see the ones that will stick around and the ones that won't. Archive or delete as the owner feels if they don't stay. 

 

Outside of being staff, writing an app doesn't help me build a character. Though many times reading others has helped me to get a feel for a race or character. Reading other apps helps me learn about other characters and open plot possibilities for myself. I do hate the really long, coded ones. The heavy ones that require every minute detail does dissuade me. I don't think that I would do so well with no app sites. Not for me, but more power to them. I don't begrudge but honestly I go for my personal feel. Everyone is going to go with their likes and dislikes. It's nature. There's no perfect answer. There's no right or wrong. Just like I chose for a simple bio on the character, each owner will choose what they are happy with. People will go where they feel they belong. 

[Renya 55]

I am enjoying the main profile applications. 

 

This stems from the fact that the majority of sites I am on are based on jcink and so it's a new option/fad/thing that is happening right now. I'm not sure when it started but as both an owner and player I find it very useful. It doesn't matter how long they are or how much is listed as being needed before ultimately it's a form I fill out without the need to worry about coding and such - that is the biggest turn off for me. I can do coded ones and I have and likely will continue to do so but it's a whole lot easier when I don't have to worry about accidentally breaking something because I deleted some piece of the code I didn't even notice before. 

 

Overall, I like applications. They don't need to be long-winded and honestly, I like just having the basics so I can figure out the start of a plot and then as my character and I get to know that character and person we also then learn more about each other. Its fun, angsty and sometimes a little crazy but I like it and it works for me.