How to get out from under a toxic member?

[Anonymous 234]

I've had a pretty toxic member that was generally being an over-sharer and breaking my sites rules and more. They posted a review in one of my review requests that included a lot of harsh details that I believe were untrue.

 

How do you get past that?

How do I protect my community?

How do I show prospective members that the review is invalid due to their rule breaking?

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

[Somniac 207]

How do you get past that?

If I were you: I'd sit back a couple days later once I know I'm as collected as I'm going to get, consider their complaints, consider what might have triggered their complaints ... and then decide from there how much was based on you, and how much was based on them.

 

Unless they're a pathological liar or suffering through some sort of major distortion of reality (hopefully temporary and quickly sorted), chances are they're making some points, regardless of how ineffectively. I'd take inventory of their complaints and weigh it against my own (and possibly other involved peoples') impressions. If I did some of those things - well, that's embarrassing. At least I know where to start.

 

How do you protect your community?

If I were you, and had reason to believe a lot of people onsite had been effected by this (IE they said something)? I'd mention it, mention I'm working on any claims I can see their points on, and ask if the other points rang true to anyone to see if that needed further consideration.

 

If everyone there already agrees it's weird drama? Brush off said weird drama and put your attention where it matters.

 

How do you show prospective members that the review is invalid due to their rule breaking?

That's two different issues. Does jaywalking invalidate everything a person might say about that street from that point onward. No, it doesn't.

 

Is the reason they're going on this campaign to cover up their wrongdoing? That's different, and malicious. You will never beat a jackass at jackassery unless you become an even bigger jackass yourself - and is that a game you really want to win?

[NFT47 40]

I am sort of having a similar situation happen to me with someone that was generally toxic and then got banned. Since then they were leaving nasty reviews. I try to just assure myself that I made the best decision for the community. Keeping those people around can really kill a site (I have seen it). Outside of that I just keep distancing myself from said banned member. We can’t control what they do but we can control the boundaries we set. As an admin it is always your right to protect that community and I will continue to stand by that. Since then I have revamped the site with another dedicated member and know even if what they said had some truth (outside of 98% of the review and then over sharing even in said review) I’m doing  my best to constantly improve my community. 
 

I think this time is tough for everyone. I have personally created links to various places people can vent and seek support. I also make it clear that my site is not the place for it. The problem with toxic over sharing members is the subjects they bring up can be upsetting to the community and might even trigger some. In this case the person was asked to stop, directed to the rules and then decided to be snarky after they were warned. Sure did they raise a good point in their spite review? Yep, the site needed a revamp and it helped me decide on a new direction but at the end of the day this person was crossing a boundary they agreed not the cross when joining. No matter how great any points made were, they were being toxic and you had a right to protect your community. 

[Anonymous 234]

6 hours ago, Toastie said:

but at the end of the day this person was crossing a boundary they agreed not the cross when joining.

Can you elaborate?

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

[NFT47 40]

Sure! When you set up a site you have a set of rules and expectations. Those are your boundaries. If you did everything in your power to enforce those rules/boundaries and asked said toxic member to stop, and they refused to adhere to them, they crossed the boundaries/rules set in place by the site.  When people  join a site, it's assumed members will abide by these rules and have an understanding of them. Same thing when you sign up for this site. There are rules we have to agree on and read. When we break rules, we are crossing boundaries and there are consequences of that.

I don't think it is farfetched for me to assume you were aiming to create an environment that felt  comfortable for everyone. When a member comes in and is toxic/oversharing, and they change the environment. Point blank. It's sort of like being at a party and someone comes in and is just screaming. I am pretty sure the tone of the otherwise happy party would change. Sites are simliar to that. There is a tone set by the community and when toxic members enter and dominate things, the environment changes. It is likely to become hostile or uncomfortable.

No matter how much truth might have been in said review which you took to heart to improve things etc, they still broke rules set in place by your site and created stress for yourself/others. That much is true by you reaching out here. 

You have a right to create rules/boundaries for a site and you have a right to ban those that break them. Boundaries are how we keep our own sanity. There is nothing wrong with telling someone "no" or asking them not to talk about certain subjects in front of you. You have a right to comfort and peace of mind.

Especially during this time, I know I am personally protective of my spaces and the people I choose to spend time with. We are all under a lot of stress and don't need unneeded stress in communities that are supposed to be fun and relaxing.  If I feel someone is oversharing, being toxic, bringing in unneeded drama, me choosing to remove myself from said situation and/or banning in the case of the site is setting a healthy boundary and being a good admin. Not only are you practicing good boundary setting for your site, but you are respecting yourself, your site, and the people that choose to make that site home.  Life is too short for toxic people.

I have seen so many sites die because admins refused to do anything about members that began to create a hostile and unwelcoming environment because of general toxic behaviors. Sure that person might have said one thing that could have been true but like I said they still came in and put stress on yourself/the site and you deserve peace of mind and don't need to put up with that.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Toastie
words are hard

[Bluepillar 11]

Sit them down, explain to them what they did wrong. If they don't change the behavior, ban em.. I've been snarky and gotten reprimanded for it. I have, however, never been extremely harsh in a review about a site I have wanted to remain a member on. I've actually only posted 3 reviews total, ever. One was for a site that I eventually became a staff on, one was for a site that I got banned for a joke about geese on after changing the subject like they wanted me to, and one was for a site that I never joined but seemed like an amazing opportunity and where the staff worked with me to find an idea that could work on their board (they're great, and dedicated to their site). I'm probably gonna change the second one, because from what I understand things improved and my complaint is no longer true in certain ways.

 

If it seems like they were trying to humiliate you or force you to do something, get rid of them. You don't humiliate people, or call them names, if you want to be part of the community or want them to work with you as a staff member.

 

However, the others are right. You have to deal with the fact that if they're right about some things, and they may be, just because they broke rules doesn't invalidate those things. This applies to a lot of things. Just because someone did something wrong, or you want to blame them for your problems, does not invalidate what they've said or those problems existing even without them being there to point them out or exacerbate them. However, if they're just straight up lies - say that and trust your community to understand that they are, in fact, lies.

 

Also, you may be dealing with someone with significant trauma. Direct them to vent. Tell them to put all the negative stuff in there. Once on a site when I was in a bad place, someone told me to go to them whenever I was having problems because they wanted me to succeed on the site but they didn't want a vent and they'd give me advice, and stuff. They're super cool. Not an RP site, though. They run a typewriter chat. It was greatly appreciated, and I didn't repeat that behavior in their chat again. Understandably, some staff don't want to do this, and you don't have to if you don't wanna. I just wanna tell you that if you feel like they have potential, this is an option. If you don't, get rid of em.

 

You protect your community by doing what's best for the majority. I've known people that have stepped down before because they thought someone else could do a better job, and I've been tempted to do so before, and may do so soon.  I've known members that have left a site because they felt bad about some drama that went down without being asked to leave. You seem scared of this person and potential consequences. Don't be. You are in charge, it's your site, and you decide what is allowed or not. You don't have to provide a vent space if you dun wanna either. It doesn't matter if I like it, and it doesn't matter if this person likes it either.

Sometimes the best way to get rid of toxic people is to ban them and tell your staff your side. That's all. There's no getting "out", right? Just get rid of em, and prove em wrong through your future actions. If there is validity to their complaint however, work on it and maybe they'll do what I'm going to do and change their x star review to a higher star one. It's your site, mate. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Bluepillar

[Anonymous 234]

  

17 minutes ago, Toastie said:

You have a right to create rules/boundaries for a site and you have a right to ban those that break them. Boundaries are how we keep our own sanity. There is nothing wrong with telling someone "no" or asking them not to talk about certain subjects in front of you. You have a right to comfort and peace of mind.

To be clear. I've never akinned rules to boundaries. I have boundaries/bubbles/personal space/personal issues but my rules don't cross into those. Those are my personal issues that I don't like.

 

In this particular case I did ask the player to stop and they ignored my request. That wasn't a rule it was a boundary that I set for my site that was ignored. It is different in my honest opinion.

 

I have moments when I need to overshare. I have some personal child issues that I need to express in a safe place that I believe I have people that have my best interests in mind. I understand that sometimes people ask me to stop, which I do, but my safe place can be as much your safe place. It also means that sometimes some people feel like there is a deeper friendship there than what you actually are allowing on your site. It makes sense but you can't fault someone for feeling a connection. You can fault them for not listening to you when you asked them to stop.

 

13 minutes ago, Bluepillar said:

Sometimes the best way to get rid of toxic people is to ban them and tell your staff your side. That's all. There's no getting "out", right? Just get rid of em, and prove em wrong through your future actions. If there is validity to their complaint however, work on it and maybe they'll do what I'm going to do and change their x star review to a higher star one.

Preach it.

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

[Bluepillar 11]

1 minute ago, Anonymous said:

  

To be clear. I've never akinned rules to boundaries. I have boundaries/bubbles/personal space/personal issues but my rules don't cross into those. Those are my personal issues that I don't like.

 

In this particular case I did ask the player to stop and they ignored my request. That wasn't a rule it was a boundary that I set for my site that was ignored. It is different in my honest opinion.

 

I have moments when I need to overshare. I have some personal child issues that I need to express in a safe place that I believe I have people that have my best interests in mind. I understand that sometimes people ask me to stop, which I do, but my safe place can be as much your safe place. It also means that sometimes some people feel like there is a deeper friendship there than what you actually are allowing on your site. It makes sense but you can't fault someone for feeling a connection. You can fault them for not listening to you when you asked them to stop.

 

Preach it.

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

I totally agree. You can't fault them for feeling a connection, but if they've listened there's no reason to ban them - and if they didn't, there is. Sometimes there are biased overreactions - like someone stopped doing the thing, but one banned them anyway after they didn't respond promptly enough. That's kind overreaction as I understand it is not what happened here. I understand that YOU set a boundary, and it was violated. They didn't change topic, they didn't go make a joke about geese, they changed nothing - that implies they are GENUINELY toxic, and you're not just throwing that around, and I know genuinely toxic cause it took years for me to even admit I had toxic traits and start getting therapy for them. There are venting sites, and therapists, and friends (hopefully they have those) to talk to. They can go into a vent channel somewhere else. 

Keep them away from your members, and yourself, if you feel that'd best. I've NEVER had problems as staff anywhere. I am enormously lucky. I've never had so much as to tell someone to chill out, much less ban or warn them. If this person has caused repeated problems, and is making seemingly personal attacks on your sites - get rid of them, mate. It's better for your mental health and everyone involved.

[NFT47 40]

I can see how it might be different for different people. The main rules of no toxic behavior/drama/hate is not only a rule on my site but a personal boundary for me as well. I work a very stressful job when I am expected to deal with a lot. Outside that I don't tolerate it. It's not that I don't care but that I need to take care of myself, so I can do my job without getting burnt out.  Having to listen to heavy things non-stop is not good for anyone mental health.

For me that rule is also a personal boundary so that is probably why I might blur the two. Of course there are going to be people that need to express things and might felt comfortable doing so, which is great but when it comes to good relationships listening is key. Some people might not feel the same way I do and can take it.

I know some communities are a bit more close and tight knit. I don't personally have a venting room on my board because I want members to be focused on writing/relaxing. Also due to the job it would just turn into a stressful thing so in place of that, I have a list of resouces people can use if they need to vent and get stuff off their cheast.

Like I said, everyone's board is going to be different but for me that is to something I am going to be okay with on my site especially if let's say someone comes into the general chat and just starts trauma dumping and making other members feel uncomfortable. It's one thing to do it in DMs, it another to share it in public chat (which has personally happened to me). In my experience which might be different from yours, said member was asked to stop and then began to get snarky and just being generally passive aggressive and hostile towards staff. For me that was a boundary crossed and a ban. Which didn't help for the general mood.

[Anonymous 234]

No, absolutely everyone's site and experience will be different. But at the end of the day setting personal boundaries as rules is certainly not the way to do it. What I believe is:

 

5 minutes ago, Toastie said:

toxic behavior/drama/hate

 

Can be different to what you believe is that. My daughter is mentally ill and that's important to me. Talking with people on sites that are also important to me helps me deal with the stress. Your situation is obviously different than mine. It sounds more like you need to separate real life from your site more, not link to other places.

My issue is specific that I had a player that was talking about triggering information that upset myself and other players. I told them to stop and they didn't and when actions were taken it reflected poorly on me, which is actually the core issue and what I'm asking about in this thread.

 

It sounds like your issue is that you @Toastie haven't set up your expectations appropriately and assumed everyone understands what you mean by the above quoted part of your post.

 

To me toxic behavior is a player that refuses to adhere by rules, staff interjections or generally is trying to start a fight. Drama is player to player (which can only happen on site, not come from out of the site) and hate means that they are doing things that promote hate between groups of people. None of that expresses that someone can't talk with, what they assume are their friends, about a bad day.

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

[NFT47 40]

When I am referring to those particular things. I am not saying they aren't allowed to talk about it friend to friend. I  I make it clear that people coming in talking drama from previous sites of other members they have a history with that is unrelated to the site is not allowed. It's happened before in the past. People come on and being hateful is not allowed. Those that come on and are just generally refusing to play by the rules are not allowed. These are all personal things for my site.

That's great that talking about heavier topics helps you with stress, but in the same breath there are sites that will be okay with that, and there are others that won't and have the right to make that something that they don't want discussed on their site.

If I have an RP site that the main focus is RP, and I pay a sub for it, I have the right to ask members to be mindful of what they talk about in general chat. I can't control what goes on in DMs and if people want to talk about it there, that is totally fine. If someone is having a difficult time, and they bring it up in general I will let them know that while they can't discuss those things in general chat there are tons of support groups, hotlines, Subreddits, and other things they can reach out to if they need someone to talk to.

If people want to run their board differently, that is their right and go for it, but if I want to keep my site's focus on RP and lighter topics I have that right too.

[Anonymous 234]

1 minute ago, Toastie said:

That's great that talking about heavier topics helps you with stress, but in the same breath there are sites that will be okay with that, and there are others that won't and have the right to make that something that they don't want discussed on their site.

You're absolutely right.  But you can't clump that into a "rule" unless you specify that. Its an end user boundary generally and unless you explicitly place it as a rule or express it, in general isn't considered by most players. I wouldn't clump that under your generalized rule. If that's what you're doing then I can understand the confusion.

 

For me it was that I reached out, redirected and asked that they stop. You can't confuse that with a "rule" that doesn't expressly state that.

Anonymous poster hash: e0182...96d

[Grimscythe 181]

@ToastieIn this case, I think anonymous is correct in the observation that this preference isn’t usually grouped into most sites. As a general rule of thumb, I try to ensure my rules explicitly detail the types of behaviors and discussions I don’t want, and I define it clearly. 
 

An example: Most site staff communicate by DM, and a player can simply reach out to staff. The Initiative does not adhere to this standard rule of thumb, so we clearly state in our rules that we will only answer questions posted in the Ask the Staff forum, and that we can only be contacted in our Staff Contact Center. Then, when it becomes an issue, which it has, we enforce the rule. 
 

You are not in the wrong; you are entitled to have your site be exactly what you want it to be. You pay the bill. It is your baby. The rule as you’ve described it doesn’t clearly imply that your site veers from the norm in its definition of the word. A suggestion, if I might:

 

Write up a template of what you typically say in those situations. Including the resources too, because those are wonderful, and then add it into the rules. (Assuming it isn’t already there, I am not on my computer and didn’t get a chance to review them.) Then, this will be something new and prospective members will see immediately. Two birds, one stone, you could say. 

[Mayu 12]

I generally find that toxic members tend to leave the site quite early on after joining.

While I do like to think of our site as easygoing, we do strictly uphold our basic rules, so anyone who does attempt to push boundaries tend to leave once they realise they're pushing against a brick wall.

Also, on our site, all reviews are staff processed, so regular members do not have the ability to offer reviews, which does limit the scope of a toxic member's impact.

[Morrigan 1,826]

Unfortunately, not all toxic members get the hint. NGL, I've banned my fair share from sites, the initiative and more just for constant toeing the line sort of behavior but at the same time I don't expect them to follow a rule I don't have but I do expect them to follow my or any other staff member's direction when advised. In these cases there is a level that you adhere to but NGL.... I have heard more crap talked about a site that adheres to a standard than I do about a site that just lets things slide.

 

In fact I find sites that not only stick around but stand up for themselves to such a toxic and volatile nature of a person to be more worth joining than a site that tucks their tail and runs or hides from the criticism (right or wrong).

 

I know that its hard because it is your baby or it is your pet project or your home away from home but unfortunately that comes with the territory of letting unknown people come onto your property, so to speak, you don't know what trash they are going to leave there when they leave.

 

I agree that less vague words need to be said if there is a specific standard of separation from RL to non-real life. In most people's case their RP friends/the sites they're on, are their only outlet for their RL and so they believe there is a higher level of communication they are allowed in most cases. If that's not the case then it needs to be explicitly said.

 

There is no reason to let a negative, toxic, volatile member let you sink. If you're sinking because of them there is another issue entirely and its not likely the member in question in this case.

 

I've dealt with the negative. I've dealt with the crazies (had one member contact me as her own mom.....). Hell I've dealt with those that toe the line.

 

You keep the standards you create. You define your community with how you deal with what doesn't meet them.