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Thoughts on Playby (Faceclaim) using deceased persons


Flahme
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I personally don't see a problem with it as long as the character isn't a disrespectful representation of the deceased person. If the player keeps in mind that the FC is deceased and doesn't talk down their RL accomplishments and such, then I don't see a problem with it. It isn't good to speak ill of the dead after all, and I would hope that the player would follow that belief too.

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On 7/6/2021 at 10:38 PM, clipsed said:

The short version: I see no issue with it provided they were celebs in the first place, and not just a random picture you found and liked. Most communities do have rules against the latter though, for obvious reasons. 

 

Food for thought: If your community does ban the use of deceased PBs, how do you handle it when a long-used face passes away?

 

I did end up putting in a caveat that if someone is deceased within the past twelve months we prefer it not be used. This was more to keep the peace to be honest. We already have someone on the site using a deceased PB that is over twelve months so it doesn't force them to find another.

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On 7/16/2021 at 4:25 AM, Flahme said:

 

I did end up putting in a caveat that if someone is deceased within the past twelve months we prefer it not be used. This was more to keep the peace to be honest. We already have someone on the site using a deceased PB that is over twelve months so it doesn't force them to find another.

 

The fun part in this, is I actually did play a character that their PB became deceased while I was playing them. (RIP Heath Ledger. I love you baby. You did us DC lovers proud.) Would your rule require that I recast him mid playing him? I am interested to know.

 

I can see the rule being valid if the Actor recently passed and you would prefer that they have a time of rest and a new player can't just join in with them. How would you deal with this if a character is already in play?

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Good question. I would prefer to let them continue if that's what they wish to do.

 

I suspect I'd get pressure from some to disallow, but I think it should be up to the writer and potentially their writing partner/s.

 

 

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:37 PM, Morrigan said:

 

The fun part in this, is I actually did play a character that their PB became deceased while I was playing them. (RIP Heath Ledger. I love you baby. You did us DC lovers proud.) Would your rule require that I recast him mid playing him? I am interested to know.

 

I can see the rule being valid if the Actor recently passed and you would prefer that they have a time of rest and a new player can't just join in with them. How would you deal with this if a character is already in play?

What  happened, were you able to continue using that PB?  I love Heath Ledger too and he was one that came to mind when all this came up.

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This is a really tough topic - when our site initially was doing site buzz on tumblr, and had a preview of our rules regarding PBs where we did allow deceased faces (with the note that they must be deceased for three years out of respect), and we DID get flack for it. Which, you know - you don't want when your site isn't even open yet. The staff team at the time sat down and had a conversation weighing our options - and ultimately decided that permitting it, rather than disallowing it, likely did more harm than good. That said, this is also coming from a crowd of people who don't put high stakes in face claims or see them as a priority and put writing first (we collectively just don't feel strongly about them/who we use - and aren't the type to not join a site because a face of ours is already in use for example, etc.). So disallowing a handful of potential faces to us, seemed like a real minor price to pay to avoid potential problems. I had been planning on using Prince, but did a 360 and reassessed. Essentially, our decision was weighted in that allowing them just wasn't a priority compared to the potential moral conundrums and discomfort it might poise to potential players, and any personal moderation bandwidth that might get eaten up as a result. We did consider the hollywood/disney stance, but figured that they should not be the authority on what's morally appropriate given that they're very cost motivated ...

Half of us admitted to feeling at least a little weird about it , and that was enough to decide that, in this case, we better just not allow it to be on the safe side.  When encountering rules like this on boards, I think one should assume that the staff likely had a serious discussion about it, and did their best to make a decision that was best for the most amount of people with the information they have and the reactions they've received. I had been on the side of the court that found this to be kind of a non-issue, but was swayed by my fellow staffs' and potential members' uncertain or uncomfortable feelings regarding it. 

I think society in general is navigating this in conjunction with rp land - a lot of folks are very uncomfortable with new stories using CGI recreations of actors and singers who are no longer with us, and some forego morbid feelings all together and just think it's neat - we're even approaching a land where some living actors are being seen as their younger selves when they aren't even involved in the production. There's no right answer to this yet, and there probably won't be a more clear cut consensus for awhile either. The best I found I can do is to listen, weigh potentials and try to make a good, fair judgement - which is not easy 😞

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19 minutes ago, MegHanSolo said:

This is a really tough topic - when our site initially was doing site buzz on tumblr, and had a preview of our rules regarding PBs where we did allow deceased faces (with the note that they must be deceased for three years out of respect), and we DID get flack for it. Which, you know - you don't want when your site isn't even open yet. The staff team at the time sat down and had a conversation weighing our options - and ultimately decided that permitting it, rather than disallowing it, likely did more harm than good. That said, this is also coming from a crowd of people who don't put high stakes in face claims or see them as a priority and put writing first (we collectively just don't feel strongly about them/who we use - and aren't the type to not join a site because a face of ours is already in use for example, etc.). So disallowing a handful of potential faces to us, seemed like a real minor price to pay to avoid potential problems. I had been planning on using Prince, but did a 360 and reassessed. Essentially, our decision was weighted in that allowing them just wasn't a priority compared to the potential moral conundrums and discomfort it might poise to potential players. We did consider the hollywood/disney stance, but figured that they should not be the authority on what's morally appropriate given that they're very cost motivated ...

Half of us admitted to feeling at least a little weird about it , and that was enough to decide that, in this case, we better just not allow it to be on the safe side.  When encountering rules like this on boards, I think one should assume that the staff likely had a serious discussion about it, and did their best to make a decision that was best for the most amount of people with the information they have and the reactions they've received. I had been on the side of the court that found this to be kind of a non-issue, but was swayed by my fellow staffs' and potential members' uncertain or uncomfortable feelings regarding it. 

I think society in general is navigating this in conjunction with rp land - a lot of folks are very uncomfortable with new stories using CGI recreations of actors and singers who are no longer with us, and some forego morbid feelings all together and just think it's neat - we're even approaching a land where some living actors are being seen as their younger selves when they aren't even involved in the production. There's no right answer to this yet, and there probably won't be a more clear cut consensus for awhile either. The best I found I can do is to listen, weigh potentials and try to make a good, fair judgement - which is not easy 😞

I do wonder what exactly makes the use of them feel weird. I've personally used deceased FCs since I've discovered the concept of face claims, and few have had problems with it. I do fear receiving backlash as a result of it, though, as at the end of the day I just think of it as a character's appearance.

 

Isn't it just enforcing the taboo regarding the inevitable? I also find that the majority of the time, most face claim rules were put in place simply because everyone does it and it's the de facto expectations of the community. In fact, they've become stricter with time rather than an increase of trust in members.

 

I think part of the reason of the expansion of the rule is due to tumblr which, to be honest, has majorly affected the forum RP community for better or for worse. I've actually seen somebody argue that using deceased face claims was an exploitation issue which is just ???? since nobody's grifting by using the image of a dead celebrity to posthumously cast them in a role. I've always been of the opinion that it honors their memory and keeps them living on.

 

It is unfortunate that the use of them is so stigmatized as I find they tend to have more unique appearances than the popular faces of nowadays, especially with how plastic surgery wasn't as huge back then.

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23 hours ago, MegHanSolo said:

This is a really tough topic - when our site initially was doing site buzz on tumblr, and had a preview of our rules regarding PBs where we did allow deceased faces (with the note that they must be deceased for three years out of respect), and we DID get flack for it. Which, you know - you don't want when your site isn't even open yet. The staff team at the time sat down and had a conversation weighing our options - and ultimately decided that permitting it, rather than disallowing it, likely did more harm than good. That said, this is also coming from a crowd of people who don't put high stakes in face claims or see them as a priority and put writing first (we collectively just don't feel strongly about them/who we use - and aren't the type to not join a site because a face of ours is already in use for example, etc.). So disallowing a handful of potential faces to us, seemed like a real minor price to pay to avoid potential problems. I had been planning on using Prince, but did a 360 and reassessed. Essentially, our decision was weighted in that allowing them just wasn't a priority compared to the potential moral conundrums and discomfort it might poise to potential players, and any personal moderation bandwidth that might get eaten up as a result. We did consider the hollywood/disney stance, but figured that they should not be the authority on what's morally appropriate given that they're very cost motivated ...

Half of us admitted to feeling at least a little weird about it , and that was enough to decide that, in this case, we better just not allow it to be on the safe side.  When encountering rules like this on boards, I think one should assume that the staff likely had a serious discussion about it, and did their best to make a decision that was best for the most amount of people with the information they have and the reactions they've received. I had been on the side of the court that found this to be kind of a non-issue, but was swayed by my fellow staffs' and potential members' uncertain or uncomfortable feelings regarding it. 

I think society in general is navigating this in conjunction with rp land - a lot of folks are very uncomfortable with new stories using CGI recreations of actors and singers who are no longer with us, and some forego morbid feelings all together and just think it's neat - we're even approaching a land where some living actors are being seen as their younger selves when they aren't even involved in the production. There's no right answer to this yet, and there probably won't be a more clear cut consensus for awhile either. The best I found I can do is to listen, weigh potentials and try to make a good, fair judgement - which is not easy 😞

 

" The best I found I can do is to listen, weigh potentials and try to make a good, fair judgement - which is not easy 😞"

 

^ This part.

 

This has been a difficult topic in the past for me to approach from a staffing standpoint.

 

I tend to to lean towards the opinion that, although I'm sure a lot of these IRL celebs have no idea about roleplaying, someone placing themselves into public domain like that inherently accepts that their image may be used, regardless of what happens (and to that end...we all die eventually). There are, of course, more private famous figures, but existing on a large scale, having pictures, gifs, etc...short of explicit requests to not be used, it's kind of...part of the business? Plus, we see it a lot — whether it's a movie, music, etc., content is often released posthumously, and often by the families of the deceased individual. So it makes me...relatively neutral and of the belief that so long as it's handled respectfully and one isn't making a mockery of someone's death, it's no big deal to me. I'm far more pressed and aggressive about problematic individuals like known -ists and -ist sympathizers being used.

 

I accept though that part of that might be personal clouded judgment — there are FCs who I have loved and used long ago when I got into the RP game way back when in like 2004 who have since passed, and not being able to use them hurts, kills muse, etc. I'd be crushed if certain FCs of mine were to pass — first and foremost because I tend to actively follow and adore who I FC so the IRL loss would be devastating — but there are some chars who I can't see as anyone else so I would lose the character, too.

 

...however, my general observation is that I'm in the minority opinion here, and that it makes people uncomfortable. Times have changed, and the RPC has changed. I've been on sites where it was allowed and have witnessed people avoiding plots with characters due to certain FCs. I used to not have it as a rule on my last site and was approached by NUMEROUS members who cited the allowing of deceased FCs as being a pivotal factor for them possibly wanting to not be on the site.

 

Anton Yelchin was the last prominent example I can remember — he was being used as the FC for the son of one of my characters (want ad); the character was amazing, strong, brilliant, in no way problematic or disrespecting the FC — but 5+ members immediately approached me the night the news broke and asked if I was going to make the RPer change the FC because seeing his face on the site made them SUPER upset and uncomfortable. It was a really tough call, and as a staffer, ngl I felt super backed into a corner. In the end, the RPer decided to retire the character since she neither wanted to change his FC but several members made it publicly known in the Discord that they would prefer he no longer be used. So from that moment on, we declared no deceased FC's and that if a FC passes away, the FC must be changed within a few days time.

 

In the end, you have to make the best decision for your community, which requires knowing what types of personalities you not only currently have, but want to attract. Rolling a lot of my old site's rules into my newest community, this came up for consideration again and my new co-admin and I decided that we would disallow it from the start. I still disagree on a personal level that it should be a blanket-ban, but it seems to be the most socially acceptable response amongst the type of individuals that we draw in and the particular culture that my sites tend to foster. So, because the community is not about me, it is a rule for our site because that's what the majority of the members want; if I personally want to RP a deceased FC that badly, then I'll find and go join a site that does allow it and join with a one-off or something.

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I have been using mostly deceased playbys - Sarita Montiel, Yul Briner, Errol Flynn, Eduardo Palomo... They were the most appropriate embodiments of my characters and I thought it as a way to remember/ render hommage to the actors.  I encountered only one site where I was not allowed to use a deceased PB, and I had to replace Yul Briner with Henry Cavill.

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It's not a problem for me to use people who have passed on.  To me, when we are dead, we are dead. And a face claim is only an image to represent the character. In a way, I think it's nice to keep their "face" alive in some sort of spirit?

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I don't like it, and personally wouldn't do it. But I've actually never been a position where, as staff, I had to confront the problem. I wonder what I would do. The point of RP is to have fun, after all, and if someone really wants to use the face...

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Disliking this sort of face claim is like saying you'll never watch the actor/actresses movies/shows again because they're dead lol. I don't know about you, but I plan on watching Star Wars as least a few more times!

A person's image is forever, even after they die.

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I mean we still watch movies with deceased actors and actress and listen to music by deceased singers and enjoy art by deceased painters. Honestly I think it's a nice memorial. Actors spend their lives portraying characters. Unless they specifically said they don't want to be a face claim/play by I think its fine. Its a tribute. 

 

It's also not creating new raw footage with them. Like, yeah it was kind of weird to me when they CGI'd Carrie Fisher back from the dead for the new Star Wars. It isn't weird for me to watch the old movies. Even just archive footage wouldn't have seemed so weird to me. So it isn't like we're creating something new as RPers, just using the images already out there. 


All that being said my game is ani-manga so we only use anime faces lol, but when I play my characters on other sites I'm pretty attached to their faces. I've been using them for years. It would be really hard for me to use someone new if one of them passed.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This seems like a new thing, I don't recall ever seeing anyone having a problem with this a few years ago. Could just be me.

 

I can understand in some respects, but really, if you followed this logic, then no one would be able to create portraits of these people. No one would be allowed to depict any deceased person ever. It seems a bit odd to enforce.

 

If it bugs you on a personal level, by all means, your preference is yours and you should stick to it, but policing other people in this way seems just a tad extreme.

 

As was said, these people were consenting to their faces bein on a screen, or in promotional material, or other things like photoshoots and the like. It's the same, to me, as not allowing candids, or non-famous people, or internet-only famous people. I care more about that than if they are still living.

 

If the person you're using dies while you're still using them, perhaps allow for a period of respectful mourning? Idk, maybe replace their image with something else for that time. That seems reasonable enough.

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