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Is fiction fake? Are your characters?


Elena
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Do you think your stories (and fiction in general) is "pretendy fun times/ play pretend" and your characters are "fake people"? Why yes or why no? 

I am not playing pretend when I am writing. I do immerse my readers in the setting, but I am not my characters either, and I do thorough research. 

My characters are not fake people, even if they are the fruit of my imagination. They could have existed in truth, just that they aren't written in chronicles ;) They would have been fake (for my historical fiction) only if they had laser guns and space ships in those times (and even then they could have been OK for science fiction or so). As long as I research a lot and I put a lot of thinking in writing my stories and characters, they aren't fake and play pretend. They are just... stories. They aren't physical, but they are real in the way that art and music are real. I don;t think fiction is "just lies' / untrue/ fake.

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I think your topic title and question is a little misleading, since the very definition of "fiction" is describing imaginary events and people... which is also the definition of fake, as in it is completely made up.
 

I don't know of any role-player who goes into a setting and feels that they're just playing pretend where nothing matters what they write. I do think there are role-players who stress the details of some things, but not so much other details, which I suspect is the viewpoint you're coming from ultimately. You make it sound like whoever it is you're dealing with doesn't believe their character can exist in their setting, but yours do 100% without question. However, countless role-players do research for their threads, no matter the timeline or setting, to give the world a slightly more realistic feel. I suspect that your difference of opinion is that you're viewing your role playing as a serious work of fictional writing versus the other person, who may be viewing it as a hobby and a form of leisure.


Personally, I always view my characters as "fake" because I do not believe my characters actually exist, have ever existed, or will ever exist in their settings. That does not mean that they COULD have existed. It's possible that my character did exist in some form at some point, but I won't claim that they would. My characters tend to be slightly dramatized for interest, but have solid basis in reality. I try to throw in at least one point of interest to make things easier for plotting. I would never play a bored housewife who does absolutely nothing to change her situation, because that is very boring to me and I don't want to spend my spare time writing about something so dull.

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Addy#5522
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I don;t think it is misleading. I had with somebody a ...discussion, which annoyed me very much, saying that fiction/ RP is play pretend, and the characters are fake. If he thinks his are fake and play pretend, why doing it? I write for a hobby too, because I have another job. I am an economist. Even the two books I have published (and I have 3 more in the works, one of them in the editing stage to appear in autumn/ winter and two in incipient stages) I didn't do it aiming "to be paid to write", because nobody except JK Rowlings, Stephanie Meyers, George R Martin and a few other lucky ones got rich from writing. The others want to publish in order to be read, not to be rich.

 

And RPGs mean writing with others and getting published on the Internet in order to be read widely. But writing means fiction. Fiction, however, doesn't mean "lies", "fake", "play pretend". The fact that it hadn't happened, being a fruit of the imagination, isn't a lie and a fake as long as it is written so that it could have happened. Art, music and stories are all real, none is play pretend and fake. 

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Ok, going to go out on a limb and say maybe you're reading more into this other person's definition of "fake", "lies", and "play pretend" than I am from the brief bit you've shared?


Fiction still is, by definition, not real, so in some applications and for some, it is fake/playing pretend. Otherwise it would be non-fiction. I don't think a single person goes to an RP forum and believes they are writing a biography of events. Kids grow up all the time pretending to be a superhero. Live Action Roleplayers dress up in costume and pretend to live in the Renaissance/Medieval periods. No one believes they are really their character while in costume. Forum roleplay can be viewed in a similar aspect - people are making up stories about a person that doesn't exist. 


I presume he's writing because he enjoys writing and making up stories. I do not view RPGs as writing to be published online/read widely. I'm usually surprised if someone reads my threads because I write them very in-the-moment and for myself. I very rarely edit my posts as I try to get into the mindset of my character at the point I'm writing a reply and just type what I feel. It's more like acting in a text format, from my viewpoint.


Art, music, and stories are real in that they exist, but again - the events in the story are either based in reality or not. They are fictional or non-fictional, and fictional stories are still based on events that are not true. I'm not sure what your point is with this, to be honest.
 

Also, with the topic title, it's just that the question "Is fiction fake? Are your characters?" it implies that somewhere in there, that the characters are real and that fiction is real. That's all. I get your point, but it's phrased oddly for me.

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Addy#5522
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Huh. Interesting. I agree with @Tessatore that I wasn't sure what you meant, but now that you explained it in more detail, I think I understand what you're saying.

 

I've often wondered if I'm wasting my time and energy with roleplays because it's not "real" writing. Yes, it's writing in the sense that there are words and stories and whatnot, but there aren't any physical "profits" or end results besides a few pages on the edge of the internet which could be wiped away at any time and without any warning. It's not "real" because it's not published, it's not professional, and it's not something I'd ever include on a resume. Hell, most people irl don't know I roleplay to begin with. So it's just there with seemingly neither benefit nor purpose, and I wouldn't dream of calling myself a true writer because I have nothing to show. Shouldn't I be making productive use of my time and be writing publishable material?

 

But over time, I realized that roleplaying benefits me in intangible ways. I'll never get a dime for it, nor will I ever hold a book with my characters and stories. But I'm still writing and creating and having fun.

 

The other comment I have is sometimes we as roleplayers are quick to use the "pretend fun times" brush to sweep across issues. I come from an environment where people IRL don't give a shit about roleplay. I was bullied and harassed online off and on for years, and if I reached out for support, I received a "you shouldn't get too worked up by it" or "make some real friends" comment because it wasn't happening face to face. So it wasn't real and I could walk away at any time. But it was real, and walking away would mean giving up my hobby. People are quick to dismiss what happens online because nothing tangible is occurring, there are no scars/rewards to show, and it's still a pretty new medium that people don't fully understand. So it doesn't come as a surprise to me that people don't see what happens on an online roleplay forum as being "fake" writing.

 

Dismissing roleplays as fake also allows people to ditch whenever it's convenient for them. If I joined a club IRL, I'd have some responsibility. If I bailed, people would think poorly, they might exclude me from future clubs or tell other people that I'm a flake, and it may end up impacting other areas of my social life. Or heck, if I vanished from work, it could impact the rest of my professional life with poor reviews and letters and not  being recommended for other jobs.  Online, if I go mia, I just change my name and no one's the wiser.

 

Now I doubt that people are thinking about it that in depth or that most are using it for I'll will. But when there is no need to take responsibility because you're not going to be held accountable for  your actions, the importance of the activity decreases.

 

Hopefully that made sense and wasn't too rambly. This is a phone post I'm trying to jam in while on a break.

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Just to clarify my personal thoughts versus trying to view the situation objectively...
 

"Pretendy fun times" I've heard now in two ways.

1. "It's only pretend-y fun times" - to brush aside any potential issues that arise in the actual setting.  Once upon a time, I had someone try to bribe my character with 500 billion dollars for a meeting. In cash. In 2014. And they were serious. They were going to give my character this much money. 
 

Ok, being realistic.... the richest person in the world doesn't have that much cash on hand. They have that much in stocks, bonds, assets, etc. but not something they can just throw around like nothing to get someone to attend a meeting. When I asked them how they got all this cash to throw around, they said it was "pretendy fun times" so who cared what the number was? Uh... no. This is actual inaccuracy and it is a mild pet peeve whenever someone says details like this don't matter. It's like having ipads in an 1800s setting. It's just crazy inaccurate and silly.
 

Other things that fall into this category are timelines. I really hate tracking timelines. I find it tedious and dull, but I also try to keep a rough track of what's going on in my threads so I don't accidentally wind up in some strange time loop. I may not always be accurate on how long it takes to get from point A to B, but I also don't space my threads so close together that events aren't overlapping each other. However, I don't get as worked up about timelines because so long as there isn't a gross miscalculation in plot A happening that interferes with plot B, when something happened doesn't bother me. It's just a matter if it did or not.


2. "It's just pretendy fun times" in sense of whatever happens to my characters will happen. At that point, it's just fun and roleplaying is my hobby. I don't get worked up if something crazy happens to my characters. I don't care if someone is super busy with life and I have to wait a little bit - I may get bored because if I wait too long on a thread, I'll forget what was going on. (Caveat: I do dislike it when the other player is mass spamming their favorite buddy for hours and hours with rapid fire posts in a day and making me wait weeks for one reply. I find that a little annoying.)
 

I don't care if my characters get into romances or not (even if I like to see them happy on occasion), I just want to roleplay. So yes, in this case, I'll say that roleplaying is "pretendy fun times" and not stress about things that happen, because it really is just something I enjoy doing. 
 

As a side note @Uaithne I have included RP on my resume! I just call it "collaborative writing" and I actually use my forum designs as part of my web portfolio. I got hired at my current job off of that. Also, the junior web developer I hired at work about 2 months ago, I happened to meet on another popular rp forum directory. Previously, I hired a different buddy I met from another forum rp for a job at one of my old companies. Oddly, both of them I met for the first time IRL because I happened to be interviewing them.


You just never know what might happen! :)

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Addy#5522
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Thank you very much, both of you. I used the words he had used, because those had irked me. And I am sorry if I can't express my thoughts as well, given that I am writing in a foreign language.

 

I think @Uaithne is right as concerns that person's mindset.

Maybe I am also influenced by the fact that I have been writing my whole life, since first grade, and my mother had always been against it. I should have given up writing and do something serious right then (studying, or doing chores, or going to bed if it was late), and the popular expression in my mother tongue she used was also suggesting that these were all fake, all lies. And I tried to explain that it wasn't. And that in a book (or story, or RPG which is also a story) it is a whole world. A world which exists or could have existed.

 

Characters who are inspired, more or less, after real people (in history or in daily life) are also... as real as the people who inspired them are/ were, because they are speaking and doing things and living a life... which is real for that time. It could have happened to anyone living then. They exist in book, or on the PC screen, to be read and enjoyed. And writting them (stories and characters alike) involves logic, research, details. I see things cinematographically in my mind in order to be able to describe them in writing, and given that I am writing historical fiction, it takes a lot of research in order to see and put those details.

 

I am not saying, like some people do, that they have no control on their characters, that their characters have their own willpower and the writer has no idea, before writing the post, what would happen in it. The characters are a figment of my imagination, and the ones who make the story happen, but I am the writer and I decide everything, exactly how the film director does for actors who also make the story happen on the screen. I am not any of my characters and I don't pretend I am. I am just the writer, writing a story with this characters. But once created, they aren't fake. They have their time's personality, history, reactions and knowledge. And I can tell additional details about them which hadn't been written, about their childhood or families or what else, exactly like you would read in a chronicle about Sir Francis Drake, about Robert Surcouf or another historical figure of my characters' kind.

 

For me, roleplaying IS real writing too. I spend as much time researching as I do for my books. They are words and stories and whatnot, and they are published out on the internet. They exist, as tangibly as a screen could offer. This is the end result - forum pages and fully completed stories. (And many books are also published only on the internet). It is just more fun for writing with others :)  than writing alone.

 

I don't expect any physical "profits", as I don't expect them from my books either. Many people say "It is a hobby, I am not paid to write!" But who is paid, except very few? The most people who are in amateur teams of sports aren't paid either, but it doesn;t mean they don't give everything in their hobby and I think they don't say "I am not paid to do it" as if money would be the ultimate enjoyment of their hobby. A hobby doesn't imply payment anyway.

 

As for playing pretend, I'd see children playing as playing pretend. Maybe cosplay too, I am not too familiar with it, so I am not sure if it is a valid opinion. I am not familiar with LARP either, I think that is half theatre... and theatre is art, not play pretend. The actors bring characters to life, but they don't pretend they are the characters. Maybe depending how that LARP is done, some might be play pretend, some might be improvised theatre. Reenacting too, is not play pretend, but bringing characters to life for educational purposes. And a bit theatre too.

 

 

Edited by Elena
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12 hours ago, Uaithne said:

 

The other comment I have is sometimes we as roleplayers are quick to use the "pretend fun times" brush to sweep across issues. I come from an environment where people IRL don't give a shit about roleplay. I was bullied and harassed online off and on for years, and if I reached out for support, I received a "you shouldn't get too worked up by it" or "make some real friends" comment because it wasn't happening face to face. So it wasn't real and I could walk away at any time. But it was real, and walking away would mean giving up my hobby. People are quick to dismiss what happens online because nothing tangible is occurring, there are no scars/rewards to show, and it's still a pretty new medium that people don't fully understand. So it doesn't come as a surprise to me that people don't see what happens on an online roleplay forum as being "fake" writing.

 

 

Quoting what Uaithne says here just because it is so utterly true. People can still be very hurtful online. I have been taken advantage of for my art skills online--been walked all over, asked to do work for people without any compensation--and it is online, but that didn't mean its effects on me were any less painful or real.

 

More to the topic--I think there's definitely a difference in how seriously people take their writing in RPs. I try to view mine with a bit of levity; it is a hobby, and it's meant to be fun. But it isn't fun for me if me and my partner don't put effort into it. For me to feel inspired to write, my characters and stories need to be well developed and full of emotion and conflict. I always put meaning into the things I make--and while it's not the same thing as a personal story or something, I think about the fictional world I play in seriously. I want to write and show human emotion and immerse myself in a different world--I want it to feel believable and most importantly, meaningful. I don't want to waste my time on anything that doesn't have some kind of return for me, I guess--if I don't get emotional fulfillment out of it, I don't want to write it.

 

But there are some people who don't really think that way, and that's fair. Some people just don't get deeply invested in RP things. And that's definitely not a bad thing! But it can cause strife when people with different mindsets end up writing together; it's best, I think, if people try to stick with writing partners who approach things similarly to them.

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1 hour ago, peregyr said:

 

 But it can cause strife when people with different mindsets end up writing together; it's best, I think, if people try to stick with writing partners who approach things similarly to them.

 

I agree with everything you have said. I am quoting only a tiny part, because I hear it often. It is a thing which, unfortunately, works only in theory. 

 

The problem is that in that case, one (any of us) would end writing only with a very limited number of people on the forum they are on, because the world of RPGs is finite. This is exactly why I believe in negotiation and meeting each-other half-way, so that everyone meet their needs with the existing writers, because no use to wish for the ideal case which doesn't happen because those writers don't exist in our part of the internet world. The basis of our interaction is how the characters make sense to interact more than our mindsets on story writting - because e.g. all aboard one ship must interact one with the other, no matter who is writing them and their writing preferences, in order to make the story happen. How would a captain never there to give the orders in a battle, e.g.? Or two messmates and workmates never being actually together aboard the ship or on shore leave?

 

The part of "find another writer to write it with, who is enthusiastic about it" would work only if our world wouldn't be so finite. Where to find them, and what if the story doesn't work for their characters, if it works for these ones? What a pirate can do, a Navy officer can't always, e.g., because they have stricter rules to follow. Two characters can have opportunities to meet and fall in love, while with another they couldn't meet or their personalities would never allow for a romance (just to give the romance example).

 

As for returning to the discussion making the subject of this thread, I have raised this issue on another site too, and there I receive the almost unanymous answer that "characters and stories are fake and play pretend because they are fictional. It would have needed to be non-fiction in order to be real".

 

And it baffles me, because they are putting real as an opposite to fiction and fantasy, while I am putting real as an opposite to FAKE, and I see a huge difference between the two approaches. 

Realistic/ real, seem the same thing to me (but not to them) when I oppose them to fake. They could have existed. They might have existed, under another name, in that time and we don't know anything about it because they weren't written in the chronicles. They are detailed, they have their own lives in their world/ book/ RPG story.

As for differentiating real life / non-fiction from fiction and fantasy, yes, I do make this difference. But it doesn't mean that fiction and fantasy are fake/ lies. They are art, they are something different, without being fake and lies. 

This is my problem. Not that I believe/ pretend that I am my characters (I have never said this, and it is not true for me), neither that I think my pirate captain should have deserved a chronicle of his own instead of a RPG (maybe a book later too) because he had existed in truth (some pirates have existed indeed in history, not Sol Picador and his crew). It doesn't mean that I can't tell you so much about him, and that in his world of a fiction book / site (fiction, not fantasy! I make this difference too) he doesn't exist. Also, I know they are figments of my imagination, but again, imagination doesn't mean lies and fake.

Writers tell stories. Liars tell lies. Fake are those who impersonate another with the purpose to fraud, or something like this. And this is why imagination, fantasy, fiction, stories, aren't lies/ fake/ play pretend.

Edited by Elena
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I think I found the root of this discussion in the language you are using and I hope I can clear up some definitions for you, and why this is confusing.

 

You're using synonyms as opposites & contradictory statements of fact.

Examples:

"They could have existed" - but they don't. You made them up.

"They might have existed" - still. Not Real. 

 

Clarification:

Realistic & Real are NOT at all the same thing. Realistic = something that relates to REAL, and therefore does not necessarily HAVE to be Real, but seems that it COULD HAVE EXISTED. Real is something that actually exists and is therefore not imagined.

 

Characters & Writing can be REALISTIC in Fiction and can only be REAL in Non-fiction.

 

Just because you put in the effort to make it so that your characters REALISTIC doesn't mean that they are actually Real. As far as I know we don't make people that way (unless I've completely misunderstood the whole baby-making process). It's great that you put forth a lot of research and effort into creating REALISTIC things. That can make some opportunities from some really great writing. It's sort of why Science Fiction is so popular as a genre. 

 

You're associating negativity with things that the rest of us don't.

Example

"Writers tell stories. Liars tell lies. Fake are those who impersonate another with the purpose to fraud, or something like this. And this is why imagination, fantasy, fiction, stories, aren't lies/ fake/ play pretend."

Clarification:

These are not bad things. I don't understand why you've put a negative connotation to the ideas of Stories = Lies, Fake, Imagination, Fantasy, fiction, play pretend are bad. None of those are bad things. Playing pretend - i.e. using your imagination to share stories is literally what ALL writers that write do.

 

You're right in that imagination does not equal lies (Lies = false statements intended to mislead). Nor is imagination in it's essence fake (fake = forged, counterfeit, something pretending to be that which it is not). 

 

However - I think that if you are making statements such as  Saying "My characters are real." When you made them up - this is a lie. Saying "I write real characters" is a lie, because you invented them (regardless of weather or not the COULD have existed, or were based on a REAL character).

 

Saying "I write realistic non-fiction for fun." Is not a lie as fiction can easily relate to that which is real (i.e. the definition of realistic).

 

My understanding:

You write realistic non-fiction stories. 

I.E. You write about people, places, and things that COULD be real (but are not). In it's esence you are telling a story. Story = an account of SOMETHING told for yours, and everyone else's entertainment.

 

This is not a bad thing. Stories = Lies is not a bad thing. Stories = Fake is not a bad thing. Stories are stories. They are intangible (fake, unreal, non-existent) things. Tales of imagined things are not real - even if the could, might, maybe someday be.

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Thank you, @Zahhy! I think you are right. I see negative connotations in lies, fake, play pretend, because this is what I have heard all my life when I was harassed why I was writing when I could have done something more useful, more productive. (I still think that even in the discussion which sparked this thread, they had been used negatively too, in the ways @Uaithneand @Tessatore had mentioned, given that "I am not paid to write" was also invoked). 

 

Yes, my stories are realistic historical fiction, and my characters are alive and real in their world and setting, which doesn't mean I believe they had really lived or that they are something else than figments of my imagination.

 

I don't treat them, like some other writers I have met in 8 years of roleplaying, as if they were my boyfriends or brothers to invite to dinner/ to hate characters and writers for what happens to my precious characters (things I agreed to with the other writer), and I don't think that they write the posts themselves, by their own will. I am the writer who decides, together with the other writer, how the characters will react, giving them the appropriate motivation so that the reaction to be according to their personality and not out of the blue, but in the purpose of making the story happen/ the plot progress. So I don't think they are real as in non-fiction. They are fictional... but still real for their world, realistic and well built, with effort and consistency.

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@Elena, thanks for bringing up this topic. While I agree that it seems that many of your concerns root in differences of diction and how words are interpreted, you also bring forward ideas and concepts that I've experienced but I've never seen anyone put into words.

 

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Yes! I'm so glad we get to talk about something like this. There's so much shaming that seems to go on in the online world about what people like and how they "talk" and "act", especially in regards to writing or other hobbies. There seems to be this sort of entitlement others have when it comes to judging those fandoms or styles of thinking that don's mesh with their own. 

 

I wish everyone would just appreciate the fact that despite all of our differences we can all come to the internet and write stories to our hearts contentment on what seems like an unlimited number of forums. 

 

I hope that you stay strong @Elena and don't let anyone make you feel bad for doing what you enjoy. Particularly, when you obviously go through so much to make certain that you are true to yourself by making characters that are realistic. Hopefully this community is a safe place for you to voice your frustrations, and one where you know we support you, even if we might not have understood you at first! <3

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Guest Crystal Wolf

I believe any of my OCs to be a real part of me. After like the first year of doing roleplay I started feeling a kind of connection with them. So if they start to feel sad I do too, so to me, they are very real along with whatever scenario they are in. But if its just a throwaway character its not the same as an OC.

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Guest Archaic Cyborg

I'd call my writing 'fake', because if it was thoroughly accurate and realistic down to each minute detail..? I'd lose interest. Real Life is, well, real enough as it is, and I use rp to try and enjoy a world or group of characters with a little suspended disbelief. I won't handwave character development or an event in favour of reaching a happier ending, but I don't need the fictional world to be fully in-depth. I enjoy dragons as they are, giant fire-breathing reptiles. If I tried justifying their biology and using real science to make them 'real', I'd tune myself out. Fiction, to me, is an alternate view of the world. 

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