Staffing When You Don't Know What is Wrong

[Uaithne 543]

Random question: What do you do when somebody comes up and tells you that another member is portraying something wrong, but you don’t have the experience/education/knowledge to actually know if that person is wrong?

 

Couple of examples.  Firstly, once long ago I had a member who made a gay character, and somebody complained about it for some reason I don’t really recall.  There was a specific reason related to the character—I think the complainer had interpreted the character to be mocking gay people or something.  So I acted upon the complaint and ended up scaring away the person with the gay character.  In hindsight, I realized that I had not acted appropriately and that the person playing the gay character hadn’t actually been mocking gay people but had been playing that specific character appropriately for the situation/personality/history that the person had created.  Oops.  I had just been afraid to offend people that I hadn’t really thought about it.

 

Secondly, I’ve had people who grossly misrepresent mental illnesses.  Such as characters with multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder (MPD/DID) who switch back and forth rapidly, or the bipolar characters who are literally two separate people smooshed into one body.  But back then, I knew that the characters were portrayed outright wrong.  The problem was that had they been wrong but not so obviously wrong, I wouldn’t have been able to tell that they were inaccurate representations of these illnesses, so I wouldn’t have been able to correct the person.  Which would mean that we’d end up with poorly written and potentially offensive characters on the site, which in turn may scare away people who might think that we knowingly supported a stereotyped or offensive character.  I ended up banning all characters with MPD/DID because I couldn’t tell if they were really being portrayed accurately and I was tired of the people who played them very wrong and didn’t do any research.

 

I remember once I ended up with somebody who made a rapid-cycling bipolar character, but I didn't realize that people could rapid cycle (because I had always heard that the dramatic switch back and forth was more of a myth), so I told her that it was wrong.  Then she was like, "Er, no, this is what I have, and I rapid cycle."  And I was like.  Oh.  If she hadn't been nice enough to call me out on it and just slunk into the shadows while dismissing the site because I was being "dumb," I wouldn't have ever known better.

 

These are all things of the past and it’s not something I’m currently struggling with, but I was thinking about it recently.  What do you do if you don’t know if something is wrong?  How have you handled similar situations?  What are your stories?

[Elena 546]

I leave them be, simply because I know that anything can be offensive for the people who choose to be offended and benign for those who choose to be accepting. There are different perceptions, different cases, not two people are the same (even in the symptoms of the same illness, or in reacting to the same thing), so what's true for x who has it, the opposite thing can be true for y who has it too.

[VirusZero 176]

Honestly I don't care any more.

 

At one point I did... But the problem was that there was always something wrong. Someone would complain that <trait> wasn't realistic, another would then complain <changed trait> wasn't realistic. Which was worsened when both traits were things that very much could have been the case. (For example someone saying victims of rape wouldn't want sex then another saying they would have as much sex as they could. Both are possible and do happen. So to say one is right and another is wrong is stupid.)

It especially bothered me when people would say <thing> was wrong when they either didn't know (maybe they read wikipedia once) or had that issue themselves and thus were THE be-all/end-all expert on it. (Except they weren't...) Mental illness was a big thing here. People claim that a disorder always manifested the same way... except it didn't always have to. (They only knew one way it did... their way. ) 

 

So because of this I don't chase after people to "do things right". Granted I've not had someone come to me in quite a while and say that another was playing something wrong... But if someone did I'd probably tell them that they're making a bigger issue of it than anyone. That they need to calm down and remember this is just fiction. No need to get worked up over it. People get things wrong in fiction all the time. (Pretty much that it's their problem...)

 

 

When these sorts of people complain things are wrong it discourages others from trying those things. For a while people didn't want to play black people because fear of "doing it wrong" and having people jumping down their throat calling them racist and whatnot. Yet those same people who would decry others for off things wouldn't play black characters either. They're not solving any problems... they're making them worse. Plus they're also typically the very same people who'd lament that there weren't enough <trait> either. 

 

I'll also admit that I'm kinda sick of people trying to police others for what they can and can't write (beyond what's illegal). I mean people find all kinds of things offensive and wrong. But so what? That doesn't mean the world has to change. That doesn't mean people have to adjust everything to one mindset. Not to mention the fact that people have used this kinda stuff to try to bully others. (Maybe force someone out of a canon spot so they can have it.)

Maybe this is just me... but roleplay has all kinds of stuff like werewolves, vampires, zombies, mermaids, people with super powers, etc... Fantastic things that really don't exist. So in a game where it's routine that people are flying (via super powers) though a city calling for realism seems a touch ironic. Even in games without that kind of stuff it's still fiction so it doesn't have to adhere strictly to the rules. (Plus there are times when real life issues are crazier than fiction...) 

 

As an aside, I'm always extremely wary whenever someone tells me that they have <mental issue> that is also incorporated into their character. In the past when this has happened it's lead to issues where people take things personally. (People with the trait getting upset when their character runs into hardship related to their issue.) So I'll admit that I don't like seeing this happen and will try to discourage people from doing it. This blurs the IC/OOC line too much for my liking.

[CovertSphinx 710]

If it's not breaking the board's Meta, I leave it alone. Mainly because the human condition has many variables and many manifestations.

 

As far as little "technical" things are concerned (Ie: medical proceedure/disease symptoms, firearm tactics written by somebody who clearly needs to take a safety class, chemical reactions, funeral procedures, etc) I chalk it up to the "suspension of disbelief" like a regular show on TV. As a funeral director, I constantly find myself shaking my head or annoyingly chastising the TV for having the autopsy cut the completely wrong way. My cop husband can't watch police procedurals because of all the terrible tactics as a second example. 

[Death Kitten 200]

I haven't really had something like this come up yet, but I would like to think I would try to approach it carefully. I wouldn't automatically assume the person approaching me about the "bad" portrayal was correct in their assessment, but I might politely talk to the player behind the character to try to get a better feel for how much research, consideration, and knowledge the person has on the topic at hand. It is possible for someone to be genuinely making an effort, but misunderstand things completely, and those people I would want to nudge in a better direction, and it's possible that the person complaining is wrong, so I wouldn't want to punish the player just because someone complained. It's a fine line, and I hope that should it come up for me, I'll handle it well.

[Dragon 673]

In my experience its usually better to ignore it. Someone is always going to be offended, can't make them all happy; and just because someone got offended, it doesn't make them right as @Uaithne acknowledged.

 

I mean, with some things I know I'm portraying things wrong but its convenient and most people don't know any better. For example there's a common misconception that shoulder wounds are safe and generally harmless. You see this all the time everywhere from role playing, book portrayals, television and movies. 

 

Reality is getting short or stabbed anywhere in the shoulder isn't remotely harmless The shoulder is chock full of nerve clusters and homes the subclavian artery which leads to the arm's major artery so a nick to the former can very well kill someone easily. There's about a 1/5 change a significant wound there is gonna kill someone. 

 

Still, am I going to police my boards and force people to acknowledge that? Pfft, no. It's all BS we're making up to entertain ourselves. Let's be honest, we're not saving the world or really anything by getting knit picky. 
 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Dragon

[Uaithne 543]

Alright, sounds good like most of you are on more or less the same page.  (Though you're still welcome to address the original question/topic if you wish!)  So here's the follow-up:

 

How do you tell the complainer that you've decided to do nothing about it?  Because willfully ignoring what another member perceives to be a problem, maybe even a problem that's very significant and personal to them, can cause a lot of discomfort for the person who has brought the complaint to your attention.

 

I mean, if I told an admin, "Hey I've done a lot of research on  *insert topic here* and Bob is playing a character who clearly hasn't been researched and is perpetuates inaccurate stereotypes," and the admin was like, "Nah, it's cool.  We'll let him do his thing," I'd be O_______________O

 

Heck, I might even quit.

 

I'm sure the same applies to many of you, but some people live IRL trying to dispel stereotypes about things that are important to them and that affect them personally.  Yes, sometimes people do fall into the stereotype (because oftentimes there is a reason that stereotypes exist!) but many times it's clear that the person didn't do research.  Or perhaps their research is outright wrong.  Or maybe it's not the fact that the character is stereotyped or wrong as much as the fact that it's just poorly written.  I could make Bob be a 25-year-old black man who loves chicken and biscuits, grape soda, and watermelon, who is the fastest guy running around the track and the best jumper, who dropped out of high school and is the father to 3 illegitimate children by 3 different women, and who is wanted by the police.  But if the writer isn't careful, that can go downhill so fast, especially if the writer doesn't give him more of a personality/history besides these things.  (I don't even think I'm a good enough writer to pull something like that off and make it be a realistic and compassionate representation of somebody who has arguably offensive stereotypical traits.)  This example is a bit over the top, of course, and intentionally so.

 

The point is that the person who complained may have a legitimate reason to have done so, and they may be well within reasonable rights to be offended by the content.  There's a difference between "I'm offended because that character has OCD and it doesn't look like my OCD" and "I'm offended because that character has OCD and isn't actually impacted by this debilitating disorder in a manner consistent with OCD diagnosis."  If you've spent your whole life being told that your OCD is a joke and is cute, but your world has been totally messed up by it, you're probably not going to want to see people with characters mislabeled or misrepresenting OCD. 

 

I do agree that there will always be people who complain, and there will always be people who do things wrong.  But I'm not certain that just letting it go is the best option, either.  Despite not having any experience on the topic (haha), @Death Kitten pretty much summed up my approach to the situation after the lessons I've learned while roleplaying.

 

There will always be suspension of disbelief, especially with things that people can't dedicate copious amounts of time to research.  Injuries, certain illnesses, cultures, etc.  People will always get things wrong, and I'm okay with that to some extent.  Like many of you, I don't want to scare people away from playing these types of characters, though I would like to know if they're "doing it wrong" so I can point them in the right direction.  People can be corrected with respect and understanding in a way that doesn't make them feel lame for getting information wrong.

 

But I would like to know what sort of dialogue goes on when telling the person who lodged the complaint that you have decided not to do anything about the "problem" character.  Do you acknowledge his concern?  Do you promise him that you'll talk to the other person?  Do you advise him to chill?

 

 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Uaithne
My formatting went haywire. Sorry if you got tagged into this post 12 times, Death Kitten.

[Sage 289]

The only time I care if something is portrayed correctly, or correctly enough, is during the application process. In my experience with writing and rp, I have approximate knowledge of many things, so I feel like I can make a basic judgment of whether or not something is being portrayed "realistically." And as an admin, as long as I feel like <trait> is being portrayed with realistic consequences and isn't just a harmful stereotype, it's good to go. If I don't feel that way, I'll pend the app, address my concerns, and let them try again. But once the app is approved, that's likely the end of my opinion on the matter. My job is done.

 

16 hours ago, CovertSphinx said:

If it's not breaking the board's Meta, I leave it alone. Mainly because the human condition has many variables and many manifestations.

 

As far as little "technical" things are concerned (Ie: medical proceedure/disease symptoms, firearm tactics written by somebody who clearly needs to take a safety class, chemical reactions, funeral procedures, etc) I chalk it up to the "suspension of disbelief" like a regular show on TV. 

 

^^^^ This. In fiction, suspension of disbelief is a major story driver. It's important to try to be as realistic as you can, and adhere to the rules of your world's meta, but aside from that? I don't care too much. It really depends on your audience/community how much you're willing to let slide. And that can be different from rp to rp. But I'm willing to let a lot slide, so my judgment may be very different from somebody else's.

 

Plus, I think it's important that people get a chance to explore these different perspectives they have little experience with. On a first try, even with research, they're bound to get things wrong. But over time, it's expected that they'll get better and gain a better understanding. Then again, even if they don't, I don't really care too much. Their creative journey is their own and unless it's causing a shit ton of issues throughout the community, I'm going to leave it alone.

 

1 hour ago, Uaithne said:

How do you tell the complainer that you've decided to do nothing about it?  Because willfully ignoring what another member perceives to be a problem, maybe even a problem that's very significant and personal to them, can cause a lot of discomfort for the person who has brought the complaint to your attention.

 

If additional concerns are brought up about this character, I'll look into it, but probably, ultimately, won't do anything other than suggest that this person not write with this character unless there's something seriously wrong. I'd probably say something like "I understand your concerns and agree that they're valid, but the human experience is subjective and <trait> can manifest in a variety of ways. This writer is exploring that, and we feel it's important for them to continue with that to get a better understanding of it and how it affects their character. If their writing is in any way triggering or upsetting to you, I'd suggest you avoid them. If it helps, perhaps you could put together a topic on resources about various things related to this topic to help everyone in our community create future characters with a more rounded understanding of this topic."

 

Because if a person comes to you with valid reasons of being offended, I don't want to say "oh i dont care lol sorry" and tell them their feelings are invalid. I want to explain why I think it's important the existing character/writer not be punished and then provide a constructive outlet for the complainer to impart their knowledge without calling anyone out specifically. Funnel that potential drama into something where they still feel like they're helping.

[Dragon 673]

57 minutes ago, Sage said:

I understand your concerns and agree that they're valid, but the human experience is subjective and <trait> can manifest in a variety of ways.

 

I think @Sage put it about as succinctly as possible in her reply. Its a version of one man's trash is another man's treasure, really. Hell, in a real life situation I've had someone get lividly mad at me because they don't like the way that I personally overcome my own issues with anxiety and depression - they actually got personally offended because they didn't feel that my personal experience was correct; so people's interpretation of fictionalized things like race, gender, illness etc aren't going to be rational all the time. Sometimes people just have to gently told to get over it. 

 

On 10/9/2017 at 9:35 AM, Uaithne said:

Secondly, I’ve had people who grossly misrepresent mental illnesses.  Such as characters with multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder (MPD/DID) who switch back and forth rapidly, or the bipolar characters who are literally two separate people smooshed into one body. 

 

This right here was a great example of how subjective such matters can be. This is especially true of psychological disorders. Now, you have to approach this with the correct understanding that there is absolutely no set standard for what constitutes psychological normalcy in the field of psychology and there is no consensus of agreement on the matter. If trained professionals with decades of study and experience under their belt can't produce definitive answers that are universally applicable then I promise you not a damn one of your players can - part of studying psychology is accepting and learning to recognize what we don't understand is just as important as what we do learn. 

As a student of psychology and having entered a field of employment that brings me into frequent contact with individuals all across the spectrum from minor anxiety to crippling PTSD to MPD types, I can personally assure you that an individual with DID absolutely can cycle rapidly between personalities for seemingly no reason at all to the untrained eye. Hell, sometimes an individuals other personalities are aware of and will interact with one another; this is rare, you wont find a lot of literature on it because its rare, but it happens. The very first patient I ever encountered with DID and another form of psychosis switched on me three times in less than ten minutes and one of their personalities was a dog.

 

Furthermore, these kinds of disorders are quite often (read almost always) comorbid so it is entirely possible for an individual to have a bipolar-triggered split personalities where, just to give an over simplifying example, one personality emerges in a manic episode while another emerges in a depressive one. This isn't a common expression, but it exists.

 

Let's be honest, most role players exposure to psychological illness is limited to wikipedia and movies like A Beautiful Mind (I could go off an a new tangent here because this movie is a great example of how experiences can vary but I'm getting long winded enough as is). Most of them aren't actually educated enough to understand what they're getting offended about.

 

People are also just naturally inclined to view the world through their own lenses. Our personal subjective experiences are really the only measure any of us have to compare the rest of the world to, and a lot of people never actively realize that; they just assume everyone else comes from this same sort of base despite the fact that most of us witness people of all experiences and backgrounds every day. So whether we're addressing race, sexuality, physical or psychological illness no two people are going to have identical thoughts or perceptions; and attempting to police all your players in a frantic attempt to maintain a bubble of "must never offend" is just shooting yourself in the foot. 

 

Again, I believe Sage's proposition for answering such complaints is best. Gently deny the request for a forced change to someone else's character, and offer them a method to feel like they're helping and channel that self-righteous high into something a little more productive - because at the end of the day, regardless of how aware of it they are, that's all they're doing. Individuals that well and truly want to make a difference aren't waging their fight from a keyboard on a role play site. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2017 by Dragon
tagged the wrong person out of habit oops

[Death Kitten 200]

If after talking to my player about their portrayal I feel that they're genuine and in good faith, I'll explain to the complainer what I found when I talked to the player. I'll explain that I inquired about their concerns, found x, y, and z reason that the player was acting and writing in good faith, and point out that I recommend the complainer either accept it as is if they want to play in my game, or go find another game that's better aligned with their expectations and experience.

 

If I did end up nudging the player in a "better" direction, I'll certainly let the complainer know how I discussed with the player they might be a little more mindful in their portrayal, but that will likely be the end of it there. Either the player improves, or they don't, but if they're not being offensive for the sake of being offensive *and* they're communicating out of character in any areas that may be offensive, then yeah, I'm not going to worry about it a lot.

 

Now, I have had players get disruptive in the way they write their character, and I do talk with them how to improve in those cases. Even give ultimatums on measured marks of improvement I need to see, and if they can't meet those? Then they'll be asked to replace their character or leave. One player disputing the whole game isn't okay and I don't put up with it. So if my follow up on a complaint leads to me agreeing with the complainer, or I'm given reason to believe that the reason for complaint is bothering other players, the character or player may end up leaving.

[CovertSphinx 710]

6 hours ago, Sage said:

 "I understand your concerns and agree that they're valid, but the human experience is subjective and <trait> can manifest in a variety of ways. This writer is exploring that, and we feel it's important for them to continue with that to get a better understanding of it and how it affects their character. If their writing is in any way triggering or upsetting to you, I'd suggest you avoid them. If it helps, perhaps you could put together a topic on resources about various things related to this topic to help everyone in our community create future characters with a more rounded understanding of this topic."

  This is the most beautiful set of words I've read all month

[VirusZero 176]

If I want to be a bit more diplomatic about my reply I might tell them that I will look into the matter privately but that I will hold off on any judgement until I have all the evidence. And that while I do understand their concern that the situation may not need addressing (it may already be addressed but we don't know yet). And furthermore that I would appreciate their co-operation in this matter by refraining from contacting or addressing anything themselves. 

 

I'll still probably look into the issue either way (even if I do give them a response like mentioned in my previous post), but whether or not I take action is another matter. I will say however that if I see someone reporting fairly innocent things as big issues then I'm probably going to ask the one making that report to leave. I don't have the time/energy to cater to someone who's delicate sensibilities have to be observed. I mean if you look hard enough you can find (or rather manufacture) -ism/-ist behaviour anywhere. 

 

That said I still don't like the idea of trying to tell a player that something is wrong. Maybe they know but want to play it that way as a deliberate subversion later on. Or it's actually a clue to a larger plot point later. Or even just, and I kinda don't recommend doing this, they working through some issues of their own. Hell, maybe there's something different about that world that makes the trait actually right. (Like for Baldurs Gate based roleplays where a player is playing a transgender character and they're basically ignoring any hardships there. Another player chews them out for it. But that player who's getting upset doesn't realise that in the series there's a few ways to perfectly change gender so there really is no hardship. It's quite literally drink the draught of dame and done. )

Even if they were playing something so terribly wrong it could simply be parody. That or it comes down to a case of would you rather no representation at all or horrible representation? 

And, to me, once we start banning things that are wrong then it leads to a problem of people not being able to write because so many are claiming aspects are wrong. 

 

[Zahara 12]

See... I have a small site and I'm a control freak bitch. If it's written right in the application, GREAT, if not it will be discussed with the player and maybe that not right stuff turns out to be right for the situation and gets fitted into the plot and everyone ends up happy. I don't force my opinions of things on people, but if I feel like something doesn't sit right in the setting or with the rest of the picture we get from the app we do a bit of research ourselves and then discuss things with the player. It just means we're on the same page as our players and means when things like this come up we're usually already on top of it and already have an answer. 

 

Discounting an opinion out of hand is a little harsh imo and if someone does have a problem with something then it should at least be considered. I'm a bit of a stickler for details (that's kinda just who I am) so things like someone writing a ballerina when they know NOTHING about ballet pisses me off... Yes I know it's a small thing, but its the shit like that which holds the world together a little more and does make things more believable. 

 

Maybe I'm a bit weird like that though, but tbh... I ask questions because I'm interested to know what research has been done and I'm interested how this new character is going to fit into the world we created. 

[Sophie Hatter 38]

if someone expresses concern over a character and i have no experience with the issue, i will probably seek out someone else who does to get another opinion and use my own judgment on how to handle it.

 

because you never know if the person complaining has other issues with this member, or if they're trying to stir the pot. i like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and i can usually tell when something is not appropriate, but this is something that needs to be approached carefully.  

 

as mentioned, everyone has their own individual experiences and no disorder/race/sexual orientation/etc is monolithic. i've read characters that clearly come from a place of ignorance and misinformation, and in that case it's easy to let the player know what's wrong. 

 

but there's some things that are incredibly subjective, and just because it doesn't correlate with what someone has read on the internet or experienced themselves, doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

 

[Cypher 4]

Anything I perceived to be even the slightest bit dubious, I'll look it up. And if things, though dubious, don't seem to be too outlandish for what they're trying to portray or doesn't come off as entirely offensive, I'll just leave it be and just watch. Maybe the person just couldn't describe it properly, but is able to do it fine in practice. There's plenty of people who can describe things fine and then fail miserably once they start playing characters, so I just jump in when necessarily.

 

Though there are some things I'll just shut down outright because it's too risky, not so much the content, but the person behind the content. Sometimes, if you're experienced enough with a person, you can kind of tell where they're going with something, and it'd just be better to shut it down ahead of time.