Membership Writing Skills

[William 4]

I, myself, have seen many levels of writing in my years of RP and creative writing... the people that I have come in contact are as versatile as they come, regardless of nationality, creed, religion, sex, or social diversity... and when they have written for their characters, it is for THAT character, I presume. Because I see a screen, and unless they have become an online friend and allowed me into their personal life, then I know them not; and unless I have met them in person, they are a tad bit vague because I cannot see the proverbial *Man behind the curtain*. So I take a bit of faith that they are true to scale so to speak.

 

As for their writing, some are very good... some are alright... and some are learning. Dang, I look at some of my writings from wayyyyy back and I am surprised. *God, did I write THAT crap?????* ::laughs::

 

so can people learn? Yes, if they are receptive, and I am always ready to help, to teach... at least to my own level... and yes, I try to learn as well from others... and I have over the years.

[Samantha 64]

For our site, we require a certain level of writing proficiency and if it's obvious through your posts or in the application that you aren't at a high enough level to write with the people on our site we usually give them a list of sites that aren't as strict and tell them we don't think the site is a good fit for them. 

 

I understand this can come off really harsh for some people, but honestly, we've only had to do it twice. It just comes down to the fact that we're an advanced RP site and because of that we're used to a certain level of writing. I'm not talking spelling mistakes and the occasional issue with grammar (though is we see a lot of spelling mistakes or grammatical errors we might nonchalantly mention they should use grammarly or something similar), but posts that show as a whole that the members writing level isn't mature. 

 

I know that many of my members would love a place they could go to to improve their writing, and I would as well. I think when it comes to having writing resources on your site that if you have them up as just something people can use if they want and you aren't directing members towards it then it shouldn't come off as passive aggressive at all. 

 

For my site, I just know that if a member's writing isn't up to par then a lot of people don't want to RP with them. It's not just because of spell or grammar, but because less experienced writers or writers that aren't at a certain level tend to not give you as much to work with in posts and that can be quite annoying when you're trying to thread with someone and you have to work to write a post for them instead of it being something that flows naturally. 

 

But what I've found is that most writers always want to improve their writing ad if there was a place that was tailored made for RP writing techniques I have a feeling most of the people on my site would use it or at least peruse it every now and then. In a perfect world what I would love is a forum that has contributors to write tutorials or guides and a place for people to request certain guides to be written that are all related to RPing.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by Samantha

[Sailor Chrome 43]

I'd really love to know what the criteria for such a thing is.

I mean it's one thing to say, most of our members write in a pretty specific way and don't tend to write with people outside of that style so we send members who don't write in that style to other places. It's something else entirely to suggest that because your member base doesn't use certain writing styles, the people who do are somehow less mature and not as "advanced" and therefore not worthy of writing with you.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Morrigan
Edited by staff for code of conduct violation.

[Samantha 64]

I'm not trying to come off that way at all. And I'm not talking about writing styles so much as writing ability. And like I also said, we've only had to do this twice, both times we worked with the members to try and help them - for one it was giving them suggestions on how to meet our word count and what can make a post easy to respond to, and for the other they hadn't written their own RP sample, it had been edited and changed by someone else and their notes were still in the RP sample. 

 

We have a few rules when it comes to writing like any other site does in regards to a word count and the fact that we write in third person and I think that is the only thing that's related to writing style at all. We had one member join and then leave because they were used to writing in first person and couldn't switch gears to write in third person and they were used to writing shorter posts. 

 

When I'm talking about level I'm only talking about the difference between beginner and advanced writing. There's nothing wrong with being a beginner, but it's not easy for a beginner to fit into an advanced site. I never once said that someone isn't worthy of writing with me and I don't really know what to say that won't come off as pretentious and snotty, but all I can say is that we work with members who aren't used to one aspect or another of our site and never just turn them away immediately. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Morrigan
Removed quote.

[Uaithne 543]

Forgive me because this may sound rude and I'm not sure how to phrase it otherwise....

 

I don't trust people who rely so heavily on word counts to uphold quality writing to create tutorials giving advice on how to write. I despise word count rules more than many things in life, and although I'm at the point where I'm okay if people have word counts in their own sites, the idea that someone who holds the "write more to write better" mentality will be creating tutorials instructing people how to write freaks me out.

 

I know we're just talking about something that may not ever happen, but still.

[Samantha 64]

I feel like everything I'm saying is coming off the wrong way here. 

 

Our word counts are in place to make sure people give enough in their posts for their RP partner to respond to. We don't heavily enforce it, and the only time we'll ever comment on it is if a member comes to us and says they're having a hard time RPing with someone because they don't give enough in their posts.

 

The word count is just there to make sure people don't reply with one liners to normal threads that aren't rapid fire (because we do have a place on the site for rapid fire posts like texting, or things that people just want to do fast). I'm not really sure if there's anything I can say that won't be taken the wrong way, but we aren't a super strict site, yes we have a word count but again, as long as the posts are quality and give their partner something to respond to then there isn't an issue. 

 

It's fine if you wouldn't trust me to write tutorials - I didn't say that writing more equals writing better, but I'm not sure what to say to show that I don't believe that. I'm just trying to backtrack here because I feel like a lot of what I said has been taken out of context a bit.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Samantha

[anthrxmilkshake 86]

I'd like to weigh in here, which is not something I tend to do on these particular discussions because I feel like they, to often, fall into some serious arguments. Coming from my perspective, and for someone who attempted to but does not actively own any working sites herself, I only join sites with at LEAST a small 300 word count rule. This is my personal belief, my personal need to be able to reply to something. Having this rule makes it so that I know I will actively have something to actually reply to, to work my imagination over. It stimulates my writing, and it aids me in RP. It's a preference I have, and I enjoy it. 

 

What the problem is is that we all have differing opinions here. Sure, you dislike word counts. It limits you, you feel like people are saying you can't RP, and that you have no quality. When, in fact, the truth of the matter is that their member base prefers a specific way of writing. I wouldn't, for instance, join a site that demanded 1000 words for every post. That is to demanding on me, and I very rarely can throw so much out in a simplistic every day RP thread. That doesn't mean I think they think they are better then me. That is how those particular people enjoy writing. If I were writing 1000 words in every post and the only reply I got were 150 words with minimal interaction and detail I'd feel as if my post were wasted an unappreciated, and I would LOSE my attention and want to be in the thread.

 

This doesn't make me a bad person, I don't think less of people who write one lines or a few words. I don't believe they "suck" and I don't believe they have no "quality". What I do believe is I don't ENJOY that style of ROLEPLAY. IT is not fun for me. Preferring something else doesn't make me a "Snotty" person. Without sites like Sinsomnia, where they require a word count, and aid to make sure that the members joining can uphold such things, I would NOT have any location that I would enjoy roleplaying in.

[Sage 289]

I understand what you mean @Samantha, though I fear I won't be any better in explaining it. Having certain criteria in place to uphold a writing standard on your forum is...pretty normal? The difference between a beginner and advanced writer is usually pretty clear, but sometimes the waters can get a little murky. It's not about style at all, it's about ability. And it's not snotty or pretentious if you want to write with people of a similar ability. It's not about thinking you're better. But unless your site is geared toward helping people become better writers and offers workshops and whatnot, would you really want to put in the effort to help someone get on your level? Samantha said that they redirect people who aren't up to par with the rest of the site to other sites they may be better suited for! That really goes above and beyond - they're not expected to do that. And it doesn't sound like they're looking down on those people for their lesser ability. There's nothing hostile about it. Part of applying with a character app is judging your writing ability anyway. Reading other characters' apps to plot with them is seeing if your writing is a good fit with theirs. We're constant judging each others' writing anyway. But there's not anything inherently nasty about it.

 

I actually don't mind word count rules. As long as they're not strictly enforced, they're a good measure of what's considered "normal" in your writing community. While quality over quantity should definitely be the mantra, word counts set a standard for expectations. Word counts in certain communities have their uses. But they're not for everyone.

[Samantha 64]

Thank you @anthrxmilkshake and @Sage .

 

Sage, I think you put what I was trying to say into better words for me, thank you. And in the few times that we've had to point people in a direction of another site I always feel terrible about it - which is why I would put together a list for them. I would find other sites in the same genre as ours that didn't have word counts, or shorter applications, or different writing styles. 

 

I also thought having criteria like that in place was pretty normal, I've always seen the level of a site listed in their ads, on topsites, and on directory listing as "beginner, intermediate, or advanced." I always assumed that was in place to tell potential members what to expect on any given site. 

 

Either way, thank you guys, I was starting to feel a little alone and like I was crazy.  

[Uaithne 543]

@Samantha, please let me know if I have taken anything you said out of context.  It wasn't my intention to make you feel bad in any manner, so my apologies if it came across that way.

 

I understand what you're saying a little better now with explanation.  The problem isn't the fact that you have a word count on your particular site for your particular preference, but that the attitude of the RP community as a whole has been "if you don't write X amount of words, you're not a good writer" or "it's not that hard to write Y number of words."  There has been much negativity associated with word counts for the past several years, in which people rely on these word counts to somehow weed out the bad writers.  As someone who is a decent writer but who really can't (and has no desire to) write to a certain number of words each and every post, I find word counts to be incredibly pointless.  But I understand that there is a difference in writing preference, and I respect that.

 

My comments as far as writing tutorials was not aimed at you.  I don't really know you aside from here and there on the Initiative, and I don't really know how well you write.  Even if I did, I wouldn't have the audacity or arrogance to tell you that you have poor writing skills on a public forum. (Nor in private, because it's not my business.)

 

From historical experience, however, what I've found is that word count is the primary way that people decide writing level.  I can understand this to an extent because it's very concrete.  However, I've also seen many horrible writers churn out 1000 words consistently, and I've seen many good writers struggle to meet 100 words in every post.  Many of the people I've met who have been vocally supporting word counts as a measure of writing skills aren't really good enough writers that I would trust them to write tutorials to teach others how to write.  If someone is using word counts as a basis for whether writing is good or not, they ultimately do not understand how to judge good writing. Therefore, I wouldn't trust them to write tutorials about writing well.

 

Any admin is well within his or her right to pick and choose who he or she wants to play with on said administrator's RP site.  You have a word count on your site for a specific reason.  (I think it was mentioned prior to your edit?)  I am interpreting the reason you have a word count to be that you have certain skills you want to see in your members, but you can't figure out how to word it in a manner that makes sense and can be upheld, so you fall back onto a word count.  What if one were to be able to identify why, specifically, one had the word count and figure out how to better explore the skills one desires on one's site?

 

For example, let's say that I have a site with a 350 word count minimum.  I don't really care about the words, but in my experience, I'm really disappointed in receiving back 1-sentence replies after I struggled to put in tons of work.  Those 1-sentence replies leave me feeling like I have nothing to work with.  But if I were to put into my rules "We have no word count, but please give your partner something to work with," it's pretty vague.  Could I figure out more concrete and explanatory ways to say this so that I don't have to have a word count?

 

It comes back to the whole writing skills thing.  I think most of us can agree that so far most of the rules that we put into place re: writing skills are 1) word counts, 2) proper spelling and grammar, and 3) tense.  But these in and of themselves don't really define writing skills.  Somebody can have horrible grammar but still tell fantastic stories.  It might be harder to slog through, and the grammar might be misleading at points, but they're not mutually exclusive.  Same for word counts, or spelling, or even using a different tense.  So if we throw all these things out the window, we'd have to find another way to "judge" people's writings to figure out if they're people we want to RP with (or what have you).

 

It's hard.  It really is.  Word counts, grammar, spelling, tense - they're all so concrete and objective.  So it makes sense that people use these to determine writing skill.

 

[I started this off replying to Samantha, but then I got long-winded and open-ended, so it's not aimed specifically at her.]

[Samantha 64]

@Uaithne , I understand where you're coming from, but I just want to clarify: I don't use the word count as a gauge for judging writing level. The word count is there simply to encourage writers to give their partner enough to work with. Even in our rules we explain the reasoning for the word count and that as long as members aren't having a hard time RPing with you, then we're good. We have a 300 word count, I think it's fairly low especially compared to some of them out there and I've seen posts that are under that on our site (granted, not by much since 300 words is roughly 2 - 3 paragraphs) but I don't make people add more to them because their post has enough meat to respond to. 

 

The deciding factor when we're looking into a member who might be more suited for a beginner site is how the members are responding to them. It doesn't matter how long their posts are, but if they aren't giving their partner anything to work with, godmodding, and metagaming it tells me they aren't used to RPing the way we do. I'll talk to them and try to help them, and sometimes it works, other times it might not. 

 

I'm just trying to say I don't lord over my site like a gargoyle swopping down to kick people out. I hate telling people they might find another site better suited for them. I work hard to make sure that my site is and stays an incredibly inclusive community and that includes newbies. 

 

When it comes down to determining whether someone is right for the site (again, I've only had to do this twice and I have a decent amount of members on the site) I try to help them out - because it's usually brought up to me by someone who is RPing with the person. The fact is that if someone is notorious on the site for not giving good responses, for godmodding, and metagaming even after they've been talked to by the staff people aren't going to want to RP with them. I don't ever want someone to feel alienated on my site or feel like they can't get threads so I would rather find some places they might like, that I think they would be a good fit for and tell them that I don't think we're the site for them. I feel like that is a lot less frustrating than being on a site for a few months and then not getting any threads. 

 

And I think only a couple things were taken out of context in this thread, the first one was the misconception that I'll judge people and kick them based on style when that isn't the case at all. If I'm ever looking into a member for their writing it's because of ability, not style. The second was just that I'm overly reliant on word counts - because like I said, our word count isn't heavily enforced, nor is it really high. And I guess I just assumed the writing tutorials thing was directed at me was because it was right after one of my posts. 

[Sailor Chrome 43]

I just feel like there is way too much emphasis on "judgement" words like level, advanced, beginner, up to par, etc when it's just not necessary. Because ultimately it's almost ALWAYS a matter of style preference and not actual writing proficiency or ability anyway. Someone making a choice to use a shorter, less flowery or detail heavy manner of writing doesn't automatically mean they lack ability. In fact, in my experience, it denotes nothing but a stylistic preference. It's completely and totally okay to have a writing style preference that you want on your own site or from your writing partners. However, it's not so nice to tell people those preferences in a way that belittles other writing styles and preferences. So, I'm sorry, but a lot of the language I've seen being used in this thread does exactly that and does come off as a bit self congratulatory and pretentious.

 

@Uaithne Something like this feels like it would work.

 

"We don't have a word count, but it is important that your posts give your writing partners an action or some dialogue to respond to when they write their next post, so please be sure to write enough to do that. It can also help to keep your partner's previous post in mind when crafting your own.

 

Something else to consider is that we, as a community, don't really like one-liners or shorter, rapid-fire style posts. We enjoy scene setting, introspection and descriptive writing more along the line of what you might find in a novel. If this does not match your preferred style of writing you might find another site to be a better fit for you."

It gets the point across as to what you're looking for without openly challenging anyone's "writing level" and puts the onus on the prospective member to decide if the style of the greater community is going to be a fit for them. One could even add in something like "Our member base tends to write around X amount of words per post" in there somewhere to further demonstrate the sites collective style. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Morrigan

[Uaithne 543]

@Samantha  - As a head's up, "word counts" are seen as divisive.  They separate between people who can and people who can't.  The things that you mention - giving people solid content and not powerplaying (etc.) - are things that are completely unrelated to the number of words you write.  Further, many people who have word counts on their site are strict about them even if they say they aren't, and this has lead to RPers over the years who have been upset to find out that a site that has said they were lenient penalized people who didn't meet their goals.  So understand that by having a word count, you are having to compete with many preconceived notions while not eliminating the things you're trying to eliminate.  It sounds like it has worked well for you on your site thusfar, which is good, but be aware that many people dislike having a "soft word count" over having a firm, rigid word count.

 

I'm realizing now that people think that applying a word count means that it goes without saying that a certain number of desirable writing styles are part of the packaged deal.  However, applying a word count to a site is literally just saying that people have to slap down a certain number of posts per thread.  If one wants a word count, fine.  But if one is aiming for certain styles/rules (content, grammar/syntax, lack of godmoding, etc.), one has to be specific.

 

@Pancakes - I like that suggestion.  The problem is that it's pretty wordy to try to put into the rules.  Which I think is what makes using a word count so tempting.

 

(I don't want this thread to become entirely "word count vs. no word count," though of course I don't mind it being discussed because ultimately it is involved in how we view writing skills.  Just keep in mind that we can talk about other aspects of writing skills, too.)

[Samantha 64]

@Uaithne , I know it is and we have a word count my staff and I are happy with as well as our members. I feel like way too much of this thread has come down to word counts when I wasn't relating word counts to anything I mentioned - I specifically said that I don't use word count as a way to gauge someone's level. We're also clear about our word count and how it is more about giving your partner enough to reply to and not just for the sake of having a word count. 

 

In regards to styles, we have a good number of people in our member base who write in all different styles, some are more descriptive with their language, others are just to the point, and some of these members have been with us since the beginning. I don't know if I can say it in any other way, but I (and no one on the staff team) judges a person's writing based on style or solely on word count.  

[Elena 546]

Tenses were also mentioned here. I think I am a decent writer, giving people both action, dialogue and introspection, and painting well the environment (I was told by literary critics that I write "cinematographically") but, especially when writing in English, I often mix tenses.

 

Unfortunately, it is not a thing of "learning your grammar", because I have learnt English grammar. When asked about rules, I can tell you all the 3 cases of IF clauses, all the concordances of direct and indirect speech... I had attended high school competitions for English language and I got high grades at them. But this is valid for grammar - for reciting rules and making grammar exercises. When writing creatively, however, I write how I think and feel. And sometimes I realize I don't apply the rules (and I correct it) but most times I don't.