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A Trial Run on No-Word Count


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My site The RPG Organization, has had a long standing rule with a 'minimum 200 word count'. This is not an outrageous amount. It is approximately half a page in a word doc program No big deal. Right?

 

The one problem I've seen with it is that some of the members would top out at 200 and post. Maybe they'd go over by 10 or 20 words. It was as if they were thinking "maximum" instead of 'minimum.- even though it's clearly posted as minimum. Fortunately, these players never stayed long.

 

Since being here and at the other directory sites, I've read posts with clear distain for post counts. Some admit that the moment they see the words 'post count' they're gone.

 

My whole objective in being on these sites is to garner new members. I am willing to do what it takes, within reason and legality, to gain them.

 

I've already posted on my site, telling my members that I'm willing to suspend the word count rule. I'm willing to trust people that they will write full / complete scenes when they post as opposed to one, two, or three sentences / 2 paragraph.

 

If all a person can muster is a few sentences we do have a section for the purpose of collaborations. It's there for joint efforts and mass collaborations. This was intended to be a solution to the 1 paragraph posts. It usually works. A few times the length went from counting the words to the pages.  The longest ones were between 5 to 10 pages. Now that's a post! LOL

Edited by Archivist
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"He who trims himself to suit everyone soon whittles himself away."
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Okay, so I'm abhorrently against word counts but there are people that feel that low counts are not enough (all a preference thing here @Samantha and @anthrxmilkshake could explain their side of it better as I don't care for that side of the argument).

 

So the argument FOR word counts is that "it gives someone something to work with" but if the scene doesn't require more than a sentence of dialogue (or no dialogue, a grunt or a sound) then someone is writing 200 words of fluff) which contributes less than actually writing what the character would do. To me a word count is an arbitrary number of words that someone expects to be able to write something.

 

I do, however, support the "you do you" policy. So those people that do like and want word counts should have a place just as much as those of us that don't want them.

 

For your education though:

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These are all onexone threads normally lasting from 1 week to 6 weeks with no word count where posts span 1 word to 300 on average. I'm talking over 100 pages of posting in some of these.

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Just my two cents here:

 

I, personally, dislike word counts (though they're not an absolute deal breaker if I really love the site). Still, I think you should analyze both your community and what you (the staff as a whole) want for your site.

 

If you guys care about a word count, then I'd keep it, rather than drop it just to get more members.

 

No site can please everyone, so I'd focus on the community that's already there and see what they think before making this change. It wouldn't do you (the site) any good to have people who write small posts join just for nobody to want to write with them because that's not what they want.

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Shady McShaderson

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I agree with Shades, that if you guys care about the word count then I would keep it. There are other ways to bring in new members like advertising more or offering things to new members who join or make characters. We use a point system on our site that allows you to buy special characters, powerups, items, etc. and we offer points for people who make needed species and things like that and it works well for us. 

 

On the subject of word counts specifically, I've never been on a site without a word count, however, I've also never been on a site that is extremely strict about their word count. 

 

What Morrigan says does run true for a lot of us who like/don't mind word counts, that it gives the next person enough to post to. I think it all just goes into what style people prefer. For me, I think that longer posts tend to give more information and build a scene more by offering more detail about the setting and the characters. Longer posts also tend to mean that more time is covered in a post so pushing a scene further is easier - at least for me. 

 

I think what it really comes down to is how the members you currently have feel about the word count. I know that for my site if we dropped the word count completely our current members would almost always hit 300 words per post and if we had an influx of new members who did much shorter posts the members we have might feel like the roleplay experience on the site has changed and look for something else. So I just wouldn't sacrifice your current, loyal members to bring in new blood that may not be a good fit for your community. Everyone has their preference and that's completely fine, we look for things we like. 

 

As a note: I don't know if this will help, but we have a board on our site specifically for rapid fire/less than 300 word posts. There's no one on the site that exclusively RPs there, but maybe if you offer a rapid-fire board with no word count it could bring in people who aren't fully comfortable with word counts. 

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This decision isn't based on what I think others what. It's based on what I"m seeing / reading others saying or doing. 

 

On a good day, when I hit 'the zone' for writing- I can and have typed upwards of 500 to 1,500 words. And then I see the next person post and the contribute 200. One person made a non- contributing ( didn't help the story in any way) that didn't even reach 150. I asked her to add to it and she ignored me. She's going to be in for a disappointment when the archive is finished and her character isn't anywhere in the story. It's that non-contributing over all. 

 

As for caring about the word count- no one really does. The sole purpose was to prevent posts that consist of 1, 2, or 3 sentences. 

 

Like I said though- this is a trial run

Edited by Archivist

"He who trims himself to suit everyone soon whittles himself away."
- Raymond Hull

 

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To me, it sounds like you want a word count. If you were totally okay with not having a word count you would be fine with 1, 2, or 3 sentence replies and trust that it would be enough to contribute to the scene. Re-reading your original post I feel like you want to remove the word count to attract the people who don't like them, but still expect them to write more than a few sentences, which might not be what you get and having a length in your head for what's acceptable in length will end up making the members who don't like word counts feel like you've tried to trick them. 

 

You could potentially say something in the rules about making posts that contribute to the thread and move the story forward, but I think that's kind of a common sense thing in the RP community.. 

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As a writer, I abhor one paragraph posts to the RP stories. It's a peeve of mine and tells me that the person posting just isn't interested in taking the time to produce something decent. That is me though. On here and the other directories I see more people posting about "word count- nope, not joining"  They view word counts with just as much aberration.

 

This trial on suspending the word count isn't specifically about drawing in those who don't like them. As I've said, it's what I'm reading.  People say they don't like word counts- so this sends me the message that an RP site will die if it has one. 

 

I would like to hear from people who ARE pro word count. To get their input. 

 

We've had this in the rules since 2003 but we' fluctuate in members instead of growing. I want to know why and how to change this. I have to start somewhere and since this is a big deal among those on the directories- with my seeing more Anti than Pro- it makes me think "this is one of the problems'.

 

I stand by my belief that 200 words is not a big deal. I'm fine with it, the members who balked about it left. 

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So you need a word count. I think the opposite. I have more to add to this but minute. I’m mobile. 

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My site has a 300-word count, so no I don't think a 200-word count is a hard thing to reach, but considering most of my posts are usually at least 500 - 800 words that might not mean much coming from me. 

 

What I'm saying is that you seem very against having no word counts, I couldn't imagine implementing something on my site that I dislike as much as you seem to hate short replies. However, you also seem set on trying out the idea, which is fine. And if it makes you feel any better, the rapid-fire board we have on our site does get a lot of traffic, though most of the posts there are usually around 100 words unless they're texting threads. 

 

You might want to talk to your member base and ask them what they think could be changed to bring in new people, members will talk to one another more than they talk to the staff and if you've had members leave or fade away in the past it's possible they've told a member why they left and not the staff because they don't want to make waves. Not only that, but there are usually small things that members dislike or wish could change about a site but never mention it because it isn't a deal breaker for them. 

 

 

Edited by Samantha
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Lets state the facts here:

  • What you are comfortable with is a minimum amount of content.
  • You feel that 200 words is the proper amount of content to get what you want.
  • Your current members do not complain and regularly reach the minimum although you wish them to make longer posts.

 

All of this reads as you want a minimum but you are afraid of the "no word count" community at large. I state it everywhere and I will state it here, create the community you want and the members you want will come. That is the long and short of it.

 

If you cater to the whims of the masses you will have more problems than solutions. End of story.

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For the sake of addressing the question at hand directly first: if you're going to post a rule that a site is no word count, then it can't have an expectation. No word count means you have no problem if the reply is literally just one word - and sometimes that's appropriate. Expecting more than a paragraph, or whatever the case may be, is a word count; it just isn't a defined one. 

 

My personal throw in:

 

Word counts bug me. I am fully capable of writing in great length. However, I'm also a firm believer in advancing action, and utilizing length where appropriate - not just because someone feels entitled to it. 

 

Quantity does not mean quality. Brevity can make for the best writing - that's why poetry has been one of the most popular forms of literature for all of human history; because its primary focus is to say a lot with the fewest, and most appropriate words. 

 

"Voyager still transmitted, but earth didn't."

"An only son, a folded flag." 

"Jumped. Then I changed my mind." 

"Ever seen chalk outlines so small?"

"I found my soulmate. She didn't." 

 

I present these for consideration. Each and every one of those is a complete story, in no more than 6 words - and some of them are even fragments. All the same, they conjure the imagination immensely; and they say a lot. They could also be fleshed out into much, much more. 

 

Just to slap in my experience in over 15 years, about 90% of threads on word count sites never actually get completed. There is no definitive ending to them. More often than not there's some slap-stick hurriedly written closer, or the threads trail to random halts because one or both players just got bored. What's really the point of that? 

 

 

 

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The site I'm on is 250 words, so yeah like @Samantha I don't think 200 is any kind of hardship.We also have a rapidfire board, and I've used it but then end up writing normal posts because I have a problem or something. But truthfully it sounds like you're equating long posts with good posts, and like plenty of people have said, that's not always the case. Some people can say a lot in a few words, others don't have that gift. Some people can effortlessly bang out huge beautiful posts, others don't have that gift. 

 

I truthfully don't think that a word count puts off as many people as you seem to think it does. But like others have said, you should probably discuss it with your memberbase to see what they're comfortable with.

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@Samantha - Here's the thing about the members who have left. They have made it clear to me why. I'll send you a PM about it so as to keep this thread on topic.

 

I understand what everyone is saying, I get it. I deal with these issues every day with my own writing. Why use 10- words to say something when 5 ( or less) words will work? In my 30 years of writing, this was true in year 1 as it is today. It was the first thing I learned. So, to this day, it boggles my mind when someone spends two to three pages describing a man sitting down to eat his breakfast and what's on the table. This book went back on the shelf and has sat there for years.

 

As for the current membership- I think Hollow summed it up best " Meh, whatever?"

 

He's one of the originals and consistent with complete scenes or more than 500 words per post. Whenever he posts, I know he'll advance the story or contribute in a productive / inspiring way.

 

@Kittenmitten I think I've seen less than 5 people who are either pro or don't mind having a word count. It's the Anti-counters who are vocal.

Edited by Archivist

"He who trims himself to suit everyone soon whittles himself away."
- Raymond Hull

 

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@Archivist - It can be disappointing when you expect a certain type of effort placed into a post and then don't receive back what you were expecting, word count or no word count.  From your posts, I agree with the others that it sounds like you have very specific expectations, and those expectations were more or less summed up well in the terms of a word count rule.

 

Don't abandon your word count to get more people.  Abandon your word count because you believe that word counts hinder writing more than helping it.  Abandon word counts because you want to abandon word counts.  If you compromise something upon which you fundamentally believe, you're going to be disappointed with the results regardless of how things turn out.  In my experience, it's better to have a small site with people with whom you enjoy writing, than it is to have a larger site that has a wide and diverse crowd, but many of whom you don't enjoy playing with.

 

For years, the pro word count folk were the vocal majority.  Those who didn't like word counts were bashed up and down and told that we just weren't trying hard enough, or that "it's not that hard" to make a specific amount of posts.  There was a lot of shaming placed upon people who couldn't reach the arbitrary line of "good enough," and it was pretty miserable.  The tides have turned, and now there are a good amount of people who are vocal who don't like word counts.  But the reason why we're so vocal is because we had to stand up for ourselves when word counts were all the rage, and it just kind of carried over.  From what I've seen, people have mellowed out a bit and have better come to terms with the fact that different people like different policies, which is good, but one thing has remained very clear:

 

No one likes the person who makes false rules.

 

If you want a word count, make a damned word count.  If you don't want a word count, then don't have a word count.  But if that's the case, you need to be one hundred percent certain that you're not going to be upset when people post one liners or three-sentence paragraphs or whatever.  If you're telling people that you have no word count, but then you start getting after people for not posting "enough," you would have become the worst sort of admin.  Don't go there.

 

Can you describe more concretely what you're looking for in a post?  Many people say that they want to have "something to work with," but what does that look like for you?  If you're going to go forward and drop the word count, that's fine, but you may want to review your rules and try to be more concrete in what, exactly, you're expecting people to post so that nobody gets in trouble for violating a vague and unstated rule.  What do you dislike about one-paragraph posts?  Can you find a way to put that into words and communicate it clearly to your members and potential members?

 

(On an unrelated note, to tag people, you start with the "@" and then start to type their name.  As you do, usernames appear, and you click on the one that you want.  The more you type, the more it narrows down the choices.)

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To put this out there. The anti-word count people are more vocal because the actual thought of no word count is more recent. I'd say the last 5 ish years. Before that, there was only word counts and they weren't reasonable. They were 600... 900... 1500.... 2000 and I'm not exaggerating. Those of us that didn't care for the fluff or the struggle really still don't and we are proud to say that it's not required. Our inspiration doesn't struggle with how much we get back in the amount of words or paragraphs.

 

Some of us, like me, find long posts daunting because they are horribly paced and require post splicing to really get a conversation (that should span 30 seconds to a minute in character) to work. Some of us have found that long posts are only necessary for a setup or transition post. Some of us have figured out that conversations aren't very complex.

 

To those of us that know/believe/understand these things a word count is daunting.

 

Think of a conversation that you've had with someone. Do you always say 200+ words of things per time you talk or do 200+ words of action? I can think of more conversations that I do less than that.

 

My best example is that I have conversations with my kids in the car. How much can I really do. Drive, pay attention the road and talk... maybe slam my hand against the wheel right? So my actions are limited and the conversations go. "No... no.. bullshit... I don't believe you." Out of all of that, without NPCing my children there isn't 200 words of thought, dialogue or action in that.

 

I prefer to interact/roleplay the way we as humans interact/do things. It may not be a standard for those that like more words but I prefer to do things as I understand them. So we have different understandings of interaction and that is what is different between a no word count player and a word count player.

 

@Archivist

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