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What is True Creative Freedom in RP?


Kajes
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I was a fan of "permission based" roleply for awhile. I think this is because I was afraid of stat-based GM heavy roleplays; I was afraid of restrictions on my character, the plot, etc.

 

I was so afraid that I couldn't see the good points in it. Stat-based roleplays with dedicated GM's tend to move the story in an entertaining way, they make interactions with other characters much more meaningful, they are usually very good at preventing completely meaningless fluff posts, and somehow a good GM always finds a way to make things interesting even if the location is somewhere disinteresting- like a library.

 

This scares some people though. They want the "safety" of permission and the only ones who don't seem to want that encourage other "rule breaking" mechanics, like god-modding. I'm one of two people I know who don't care if you want to take my character in a certain direction (so long as it's IC for them to do so) because it's the most creatively free thing to do. It lets you open up the story in a very fun and unpredictable way, and that in my opinion is what roleplay is supposed to be. Unpredictable and fun.

 

I've begun to develop a biased outlook on roleplays without stats and a GM or two. They just aren't fun anymore. Creating a plot that other people are interested in is a chore because you basically need to ask for permission for everything and then the story you had gets changed so much that not only is it not the story you wanted, but it's as safe as a daycare center.

 

People are afraid of their characters hurting, or even dying...and in having that fear, they're also afraid of being creative with how their character fights through their pain, or what their character will die from and how they'd act on their deathbed. It's intense, and the fact they're cautious about intensity will always make those types of roleplay feel as if my hand is being held, to me anyway.

 

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Every action has its own reaction,  a quote that is pretty much part of my life and also in my writing. If I write that I shoot, then I should hold the responsibility of my action in the game. The true creative freedom for me is then pure in what I write has a reaction to the story. As a GM I plan out out a guideline from a beginning and an end, but never real strains of what happens in between. The players make out what happens and if my desire was to succeed, but the players play it out as a failure, then I accept that.

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With the exception of that rare one in a million 1x1 partner, creative freedom doesn't exist in RP

 

A stat/die based RP can't support true creative freedom by its very definition and function. It just introduces a new element of risk by force. 

 

Permission based RP is even more restricting. At least with a stat system a player can mostly commit whatever action they want in certain scenarios, even if those actions might fail based on a roll of the die. With permission based RP, a player can't even commit most actions without running it by the second party first. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dragon said:

With the exception of that rare one in a million 1x1 partner, creative freedom doesn't exist in RP

 

A stat/die based RP can't support true creative freedom by its very definition and function. It just introduces a new element of risk by force. 

 

Permission based RP is even more restricting. At least with a stat system a player can mostly commit whatever action they want in certain scenarios, even if those actions might fail based on a roll of the die. With permission based RP, a player can't even commit most actions without running it by the second party first. 

 

How does writing across from a fantastic partner impact how much creative freedom you enjoy while rping? Regardless of how flexible and permissive your partner is, you still have to concede some control of the narrative to them, and that concession detracts from total, true creative freedom. The nature of rp requires that concession of total, boundless control as you said, "...creative freedom doesn't exist in RP." Otherwise...I imagine the rp becomes a messy dance of stepping on each others' toes, and would fall apart quickly. I agree that, with a great partner or group, the usual limitations to creative freedom can feel much looser...but they're still ever present.

 

I believe a well executed stat and dice system may be able to provide the highest possible degree of creative freedom for rp, while not enforcing any new or unusual restrictions on freedom.

 

In typical rps, you can control your own character and that's pretty much it. Sometimes a little setting and NPC stuff too, but, in my experience, a lot of games restrict how impactful that extra setting n' NPC information can be on plots and other players' characters. You control your character, but not so much the world around them or how other characters react or respond to them. In a stat and dice game in which you may have your character attempt to do anything, but the systems and dice control the outcome of such actions...I'd say you have the usual level of freedom found in rp. I don't see the outcome of an action as tied intrinsically to your control of your character, and - depending on the IC circumstances - I find that most of the rp community agrees.  You get to decide if your character thrusts a knife into another character's belly (your character's action), but typically don't get to control the outcome (if the other character dodges or is stabbed). That's the usual level of control we permit our partners, yea? So if that outcome is not up to the soon-to-be-stabbed character's player to decide, but instead a dice system to keep everything measured, balanced, and fair...I don't see how any extra creative freedom is forfeit. Instead, I see a way to omit the all too often hyper-constricting permission-based rules in favor of a much freer and fairer system.

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I agree with this post wholeheartedly. I honestly hate so-called "open" roleplay, aka roleplay without any concrete mechanics. I like to play in stats-heavy games, because i believe they provide more creative freedom to roleplay as I want. For example, I've attempted to play in several (mostly historical) games that claim to be about grand politics between kings, queens, and lords. However, they have no mechanics for military conquest, or even numbers for how many troops each lord or even nation would have. To me, this is deeply problematic. How are you supposed to rp grand-scale warfare and politics without any sort of military system? At that point who wins and loses battles is arbitrarily defined by the mods, which is deeply problematic especially when the mods have characters in the game.

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20 minutes ago, PhantomMask said:

I agree with this post wholeheartedly. I honestly hate so-called "open" roleplay, aka roleplay without any concrete mechanics. I like to play in stats-heavy games, because i believe they provide more creative freedom to roleplay as I want. For example, I've attempted to play in several (mostly historical) games that claim to be about grand politics between kings, queens, and lords. However, they have no mechanics for military conquest, or even numbers for how many troops each lord or even nation would have. To me, this is deeply problematic. How are you supposed to rp grand-scale warfare and politics without any sort of military system? At that point who wins and loses battles is arbitrarily defined by the mods, which is deeply problematic especially when the mods have characters in the game.

I'm only doing original stuff but what you said about grand politics and so on is pretty intriguing. I'd like to do something like that where the players are part of an Empire but I'm not sure how to do it exactly.

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1 minute ago, Gota said:

I'm only doing original stuff but what you said about grand politics and so on is pretty intriguing. I'd like to do something like that where the players are part of an Empire but I'm not sure how to do it exactly.

Well in my mind, you need to define things like population sizes and troop numbers for your empire. After all, if your players are going to be warring with each other, they need to at least know how many troops they have. I would also recommend a military system of some kind, even something as simple as a basic d20 system to define how well the troops are fighting. I tend to go a bit overboard with my mechanics, but if you need an example you can check out my own mechanics, a guide to which is posted at https://www.reddit.com/r/RPGItalia/comments/8mc4jv/military_guide/. As you can see if you look at the claims and armies list, (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1B0bSrwkRtkMZkqKrUiRLmrDJTHml1q_vhsd196nDgZs) I have defined populations and troop numbers for each of the Signorie (lordships) of Italy, allowing players to know how strong they are compared to other players. Like I said, my rp might go a bit too far with having super-concrete mechanics, but I definitely prefer this sort of rp to the super open-form stuff.

 

Check out https://www.reddit.com/r/RPGItalia/ for a free historical strategic roleplaying experience set in Renaissance Italy!

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I prefer to choose from the start the size of the available ships/ fleet, and to write our stories unhindered by any stats, just between the imagination of the writers. And if one loses this turn, will win the next turn (unless it is a historical battle, which we know who has won it from history - because we don't change history milestones, we navigate through them with other details which might be "not written in the chronicles").

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On 6/30/2018 at 5:19 PM, PhantomMask said:

Well in my mind, you need to define things like population sizes and troop numbers for your empire. After all, if your players are going to be warring with each other, they need to at least know how many troops they have. I would also recommend a military system of some kind, even something as simple as a basic d20 system to define how well the troops are fighting. I tend to go a bit overboard with my mechanics, but if you need an example you can check out my own mechanics, a guide to which is posted at https://www.reddit.com/r/RPGItalia/comments/8mc4jv/military_guide/. As you can see if you look at the claims and armies list, (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1B0bSrwkRtkMZkqKrUiRLmrDJTHml1q_vhsd196nDgZs) I have defined populations and troop numbers for each of the Signorie (lordships) of Italy, allowing players to know how strong they are compared to other players. Like I said, my rp might go a bit too far with having super-concrete mechanics, but I definitely prefer this sort of rp to the super open-form stuff.

 

I think I explained it poorly, really sorry about that. I meant more like that the players are part of the Empire and their goal is to subjugate the rest of the landmass the Empire is on (so it's more PvE than PvP), like against a coalition of smaller countries (which are probably NPCs) and you are part of the Empire this time instead of fighting it.  So what I would need is something like a "conquest" system where you invade other countries and attack their cities and armies.

Although it could also be possible to diplomatically annex them or use other means since only violence could get even an Empire in trouble with other big countries.

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Creative freedom to a writer means being able to write whatever they want. Period.

 

But roleplay is a different medium. One person's creative freedom can infringe upon another's.

 

It is, therefore, my opinion that "True" creative freedom in roleplay is merit-based. You have creative freedom when you are able to convince those around you to enable you to write what you want and partake in your stories with you. If you are writing whatever you want, but nobody writes with you, you are no more free than a man locked in a cell with everything he could ever need to be happy there except a way out. It's less about theoretical freedom and more about finding the right place and the right audience.

 

The better you are as a writer, the more creative freedom you have and the less rules actually matter--to an extent, anyway. 

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So I think we're all on the same page that 'freedom' is the wrong word for being able to make *other* people do what you want.

 

The point that's actually being made, in terms of creative *power* is important, and in a consent-based RP that power has to be negotiated. There's an awareness of the social situation that's important. Sure I can play a murderous psychopath on a real life board, but the other players aren't there for that, so getting someone to agree to get maimed, much less killed, especially without a lengthy discussion beforehand, is highly unlikely. It easy to say 'oh, horror, so they want to be scared' but if the threads that exist on the site, if the plotting discussions don't support that, then your idea of horror isn't the same as theirs. End of story.

 

The solution to having creative 'power' on a board where other players have creative freedom to respond to you however they want is to discuss it beforehand. You essentially are finding people who want to be hurt, and you develop relationships and trust so that they entrust their character to you. You want power? You show you're worthy and ask for it.

 

And honestly, when dealing with other people, there's not really a way around this. Even on a stat-based site, you have to convince people to join and thread as lower powered people who can be hurt and killed by you. You still have to earn people's trust if you want them to write your victims for you.

 

Of course, what this does not give is the thrill of creative uncertainty, not knowing what's going to happen, but I don't know if that's what the desire is, and even still, you don't really know how it's going to happen.

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What is being described in the OP is a player problem, not an issue inherent in stat-based games or forums without any game mechanics.

 

A villain can very successfully be played on a forum without game mechanics- I always have one, and threads with them are always in high demand. Many of these villains were not the suave, low-key sort. I believe the keys to my success have been not calling my villains villains and not telling people what the character might do to them. I tell other players literally nothing about them, but when things get serious I always write my posts in a way that does not assume anything. I let the other player decide the extent of the damage, if any. They learn through playing with them, and they put their characters in those dangerous situations themselves. I have also been willing to make my villain suffer as much as they made others suffer. It's worked extremely well for me. But I think that is a different subject than what creative freedom in RP is. 

 

For this there is no one correct answer, as everyone wants different things from RP. Personally, I feel I have the most creative freedom when I can talk with other players. Whether a game uses stats or not, communication is key (I realize the irony in this given the above paragraph lol). If you can't have an open and honest dialogue with someone, what is the point of creating anything with them at all? 

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On 6/11/2018 at 2:27 PM, Kajes said:

How does writing across from a fantastic partner impact how much creative freedom you enjoy while rping? Regardless of how flexible and permissive your partner is, you still have to concede some control of the narrative to them, and that concession detracts from total, true creative freedom.

 

Writing across from a great partner makes all the difference in the world. This subject is about creative freedom in regards to role play - by default that means there is at least a minimum level of concession and collaboration between partners - the "true freedom" you've qualified in the quote above is called story/book writing.

I used the qualifier one in a million for a reason. Most people never find that partner. 

 

However, for those fortunate enough to find them there is an extreme level of freedom. You don't have to ask them for permission to injure or even sometimes directly control their character - you understand one another and know what is appropriate. 

 

I'm currently doing a RP with @Morrigan where a nuclear storm hit the party and forced them to splinter into groups to find shelter in time. When the storm cleared out and the two characters primarily in play in that scene ventured out, they found the other three and Morr established that my character in that group had been badly wounded by a panicked mutant also fleeing the storm. 

 

This wasn't a minor type side or typically npced character, this is one of my favorites and one I've been fond of for years now; but Morr didn't ask for permission to write that in because there was no need to. We don't have to ask permission to throw whatever roadblocks into play. She could outright choose to kill my characters in our plots and I wouldn't flinch - but we don't do that because it'd bring the story to an end before we're ready to give up the setting. 

 

As far as RP is concerned that's as close to creative freedom as its possible to get. 

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