Staffing Writing quality

[Uaithne 543]

I, personally, think it's acceptable to set grammatical standards on your site if that is what you wish to do. However, it's going to be difficult to draw the line between acceptable mistakes and unacceptable mistakes, especially if you yourself are prone to them. But I can completely understand the desire to set standards in order to make the board what you desire it to be.

 

For my site, I'm cautious with this. I'd rather have someone on board who is a great story teller and roleplayer but who happens to struggle with grammar and diction, then to tell them they aren't allowed because their grammar isn't where I'd like it to be. That said, part of writing is being able to coherently convey thoughts and emotions through writing; if someone's writing abilities don't allowed them to do this, then they probably aren't the best fit for my site.

 

For the record, the sentence that @Kit the Human found offensive did not strike me as being offensive at all since I read it differently than she did. Only upon reading it a second time did I understand because I took the question quite literally when I read it at first. (As in, how bad would it actually be in a quantitative sense and whatnot, not like . . . merely pointing out that you are better. Which is a way the sentence can be interpreted in a more casual sense, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

To answer the question, I don't think it's bad, as long as you are open to people telling you what flaws you make. Just bear in mind that people don't like being corrected and you may find that they get offended or hurt. I'd only talk with people if it becomes a consistent thing, or if a certain mistake interferes with your comprehension of that individual post or scene.

[Anonymous 234]

@Uaithne my question was indeed meant to be literal! Because if someone else isn't a native speaker as well, or, say, it's a writing workshop in my own language, I would be more comfortable giving advice. 

 

Also, I'll take your word on people being willing to improve.

 

Once more, I think cultural difference is involved, and more than I imagined. Where I live, if I find someone who writes dreadfully bad, most likely they are *not* someone who loves reading but, say, couldn't afford college. It's easier to find someone who despises culture because they're rich and they don't need it. To give you some perspective, private schools for the rich are often much easier than (free or almost) public schools, because they're meant for rich brats wanting a vanity title.

Or, if one's not privileged, because "reading is gay lol" or because "you don't need grammar to be a mommy" (and while especially the last one may be due to brainwashing and not one's fault, it can still become quite aggressive, with someone saying college girls are all sluts and the like).

 

Not saying this covers 100% of all cases, but enough to make me biased, I realize, and expect that if you're that bad most likely you don't care.

I understand it can be very different in another context.

Anonymous poster hash: 635bf...7ac

[Morrigan 1,826]

I'll be real. I've known @Elena for what seems like forever. (Love you Elena baby!) English is not her first language, that vampire Romanian love that she is. She writes better (at least in my opinion) but I convey what I mean better.

 

This isn't a bad thing. It's a difference of culture, it's also a difference of what is expected and a difference of what she and I believe to be good storytelling.

 

I've been speaking English since it was cool (aka since I was a toddler and mama and dada were just my basic vocabulary) so I understand slang, and understand certain inflections differently than she does sometimes, even in posts. I've had my fair share of disagreements with her mostly because of misunderstandings over context in our posts. This doesn't make her method of writing or my method of writing better, just different.

[Elena 546]

@Morrigan, I am not a vampire! 😛 If I ever become one, I promise you will be the first one bitten 🙂 Just tasted a little, not killed 😛 . (Usually I am the victim of medical vampires, since my veins need a private investigator and still aren't found for blood tests.) But yes, I agree with you. 

 

And I have always been thinking, seeing Americans who make more glaring mistakes in English, "How the Hell they had passed high school with such awful spelling and grammar in THEIR OWN LANGUAGE? We have learnt it and I know this thing is not correct, even if it is not my own language. How difficult can be to learn properly your own? And what did those teachers do, not to mention the students themselves?" 

 

I agree with the Anonymous too. In my experience, those who have learnt English as a foreign language, while making their own mistakes (one can never write as correctly as a native speaker, I think) are more careful towards the grammar they have learnt (while the aspects they haven't learnt/ understood as well are also seen), and some who are native speakers are like "whatever goes". And yes, I have seen more people who weren't fluent in English when joining the site, becoming more fluent and increasing their vocabulary tremendously after a few months/ a year, than Native speakers improving their English skills.

[Uaithne 543]

I'll be honest here: in California, at least, most Americans don't learn English grammar.  I remember doing basic spelling tests in elementary school and junior high (up to age 14-ish), but after that, we were just expected to spell things properly on our own using spell check, dictionaries, etc.  I was lucky in that I did have some grammar education, but most people don't.  This deficiency is very clear even at the university level when our professors are telling us to write in complete sentences and not to forget verbs or whatever.  Even reading e-mails at work, it's obvious that not everybody knows how to do "simple" things like subject-verb agreement or using the right form of their/there.  It's really weird because people are taught to write essays and reports, but they're not always taught the basics of grammar.

 

The advantage that many people who speak English as a second language have is that learning grammar is often built into learning the language.  (At least, I assume.  In my educational experience in America, though, when we learn languages at the university level, they don't always teach us grammar and instead expect us to just somehow follow along with the language as we go.)

 

Therefore, I am not surprised that you may have a better grasp of the English language over native speakers.  Speaking a language is very different than reading a language, which is also very different than writing a language.  Native speakers can speak English well, but if they're not properly taught how to write it, there's going to be a deficiency in their ability to communicate in English.  Sadly, our educational system is flawed, but I think it's best to leave it there rather than getting into the politics of it all.  Just wanted to give you a background.

[CovertSphinx 710]

9 hours ago, Elena said:

Usually I am the victim of medical vampires, since my veins need a private investigator....

I am SO creating a Vampire Nurse character who is BEAST at finding veins and her supervisor is constantly yelling at her to start using needles because her fangs aren't considered Sanitary. 

 

 

Anywhoo, to Echo @Uaithne, New York is pretty similar. Aside from some very basic stuff that would "let us function in day to day common society", we don't get a crash course in traditional grammar. A couple of reasons include:

- As Natives we're assumed to just...absorb it based on the people around us in the same fashion as we learned to speak.
- Our system is set up to teach us what we need to know for standardized tests (Read as: Timed Fact Regurgitation Exercises), more than anything else. Education is a profit industry (for the test makers) more-so than a scholarly ministry of enlightenment. 
- Most of our day-to-day lives as adults (unless you are in a career field such as journalism, writing, English/Language Arts Teacher, etc) doesn't require much use of the writing arts, therefore we do not keep our skills practiced (and things often get forgotten with time). 

- It's not heralded as an important skill (at least not often), so it often gets lefts behind in the list of things people care a lot about.

[Elena 546]

@Uaithne and @CovertSphinx: It baffles me to learn this, because we do Grammar in school since second till eighth grade, being drilled into us with 2 hours/ weekly. It is also a subject for the exam to enter high school. In high school, true, one does study Grammar only if attending a class major on languages.  How can one pick grammar up without being properly taught? (Not that we don't have people who can't spell/ can't speak properly, but these are the kind who barely pass from a class to another. Definitely not the ones whom to expect to meet in a writing-related hobby). 

 

And yes, we study the first foreign language since second grade till the end of high school, and the second foreign language since fifth grade till the end of high school, being taught grammar, gradually, since the first year of study. 

 

As for incomprehensible/ grammar-defying posts, the worst I had seen was from people who were writing in a sort of stream of consciousness, without editing and without paying attention to tenses, verbs or anything related to grammar. And yes, native speakers 😞. (I saw also a Dutch lad who used google translate, and I had to tell him to leave and come back when he'll be able to write in English without google translate, one of the less than a handful of bios I have utterly rejected in 8 years of staffing. Usually I am working with the new member to make the character adapt...)

Edited June 27, 2018 by Elena

[Morrigan 1,826]

We are tested for "reading and writing comprehension" more than anything. And grammar is actually the lowest on the scale of things to learn.

 

In fact, I was talking to @Dragon about this last night, because to me there is actually a larger contention here from Not native speakers to native speakers and our understanding of learning. As a native speaker we are taught "rules" that aren't actually rules they are more guidelines but that is the extent of what you are taught. You are taught a comma and a period are a pause in sentence struture, verbally those things are sort of like a skip over point with a moment of hesitation (the length depends on if it's a comma or a period). I was (personally) taught if you change the subject then you change the paragraph, which not a lot of roleplayers adhere to.

 

I have, personally, taken the standpoint that I write the way I hear it in my head. Short pause is comma, long pause is period. That's the end. Semicolons, colons etc are just arbitrary terms and useless blah blah blah to me. I convey what I want to say, emotionally through how I understand the English language in written form. It's different for native and non-native speakers. We are taught differently on what is and isn't important and whether it is or isn't the way to write.

 

@Elena

[Maleficent 15]

This is one of those topics I feel strongly about and something I discussed with someone  just yesterday. I requested edits on an app that didn’t make sense and a friend who isn’t even on the site commented after the edits were made that the writing was still poor and it would put them off joining. As an admin and not an editor- I don’t think it is my place to deny members because I don’t think their writing quality meets (in my opinion) an arbitrary guideline for intermediate or advanced. It’s an rp. If I can understand the character and what you’re saying then you’re accepted. If people don’t want to RP with you then that’s another story and I can’t do anything about that. My stance is always “I’m not here to teach you how to write but if you can learn through writing with other people then fantastic.” I have seen many people in the past improve their writing through RP. Hell if you read some of my first rp posts compared to what I do now you’d not think they were the same person. 

 

I feel strongly that writing is supposed to be fun and just because grammar is an issue doesn’t mean you can’t storytell. 

I am doing my MA in Creative Writing but I am dyslexic. I have also never been taught grammar- in my secondary school I was lumped in with people that didn’t want to work. I wasn’t even allowed to read a whole novel, we were given snippets and abridged versions because we were in the “stupid class” and no teacher was going to waste time teaching us anything more than getting a pass. I wasn’t even tested for dyslexia. I’m 27 tomorrow and next Friday I’ll be doing the test for the first time as a formality for my last year of the MA. I’ve passed everything so far in this class and I got myself into a highly sought after course without dyslexia aid or an editor and if a university can accept me with all my grammar mistakes then an RP site shouldn’t think twice about it in my opinion. -shrug-

Edited June 27, 2018 by Maleficent

[memoria 37]

This has probably been mentioned somewhere already, but I always felt like to be a writer or to even just enjoy writing, you don't need to necessarily be exceptional at grammar. I'm certainly not saying that grammar is an unimportant quality, but to write and express stories, sentences, emotions, and streams of thoughts is a wonderful thing that doesn't need to be hindered by ideas like, "Hmmm... should there be a semi-colon there?" After all, that's what proofreading and editing is for!

 

There are times when I'll try to definitely be more precise about my grammar. For example: when writing out the lore for an upcoming site of mine, I proofread the heck out of everything. I'm positive it's not perfect, but it was important for me to try. But when I'm posting back and forth to roleplay partners, I'm hoping they can be accepting and forgive my blunders and any repetitiveness when it comes to grammar and writing.

 

(Fun fact: Throughout this whole discussion on grammar, I kept typing "grammer". :D)

[CovertSphinx 710]

I'd like to add a mention, seeing it come up in multiple posts: 

I'm one of those people who began RPing with the explicit intention to practice my writing. My reading and comprehension was several grades above level, but I was borderline failing my English Class because I could not Write comprehensively on my assignments. 

I credit two main variables in the success of my endeavor (I stopped barely passing my class every year  lol): The first being that RP let me focus on stuff I was INTERESTED in writing about instead of assigned essays with topics I couldn't care two sheets for; the second being that my fellow RPers didn't sit there and grade my posts, like an English Teacher, telling me what I was doing "wrong". I was allowed to develop my own style free of judgement from the far superior writers that I was surrounded by.

Edited June 27, 2018 by CovertSphinx

[StormWolfe 557]

This has been an interesting series of posts to read!

 

At my RPGs, we always keep in mind that English may not be someone's first language. We also do not worry overmuch about minor typos and errors. If I have to edit a post to add in my tag replies (we do most of our dialog writing as joint posts), I will fix glaring errors like their/there, ot and to, etc. If the errors are excessive for one person, I will contact them privately and ask that they read over their posts a bit more carefully.

 

When I was in school - a very long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away - we were taught grammar, vocabulary, and spelling all the way into high school. I still have my copy of the Hodges Harbrace Handbook. Until recently, I would not use contractions when writing the narrative portions of my posts. I limited slang and contractions to dialog.

 

I do not feel that it is unreasonable to expect a certain level of readability in story-related posts. My sites do state this as one of our requirements: You must be able to read, write, and communicate understandably in English. Beyond that, I feel like we are very laid back when it comes to writing our stories.

 

By the way, sad to say, our German member is a great writer and communicator. She probably speaks, reads, and writes English better than I do these days!

 

Blessed Be!

[Kajes 40]

Here and there in this discussion is a sentiment that various disadvantages - sub-par education opportunities, language disabilities, second language struggles - are valid as excuses to ignore or forgive egregious grammar errors. Alongside this idea is the notion that one's writing style provides the same excuse... I disagree with these notions wholeheartedly. Any disadvantage with a language, even just inexperience with one's own native language, is no excuse for poor grammar. Nor are these factors grounds to attack or belittle someone for their mistakes. If anything, such disadvantages are just a reason to be patient and considerate when writing across from one another, although I'd argue that most everyone deserves to be treated with kindness regardless of their background or ability level. As long as you're writing to the best of your abilities, proofreading at least a lil', and are trying to improve your skills...you're granted all of my graces. The players who are not deserving of such kindnesses, are the problem players... Which are the players I think Anon was talking about.

 

The problem players are those who post replies that look like those lil' viral paragraphs that show you how you can read scrambled words. You konw, seencnets taht hvae to be deecriephd and are knid of a haedchae to raed. It's colmbpirsenehe, but not plitoe at all in a relopaly stetnig or jsut not paesling to raed. Those who admit to writing hurried, slap-dash posts from their phones. Posts tha tare littered with basic typos, spelling errers, repeated words words,, and misplaced puncutation. and no capitalization and run-on or highly fragmented sentences. I'm positive you could glean the message from those messed up sentences, but I'm also sure it took a lil' effort and what not fun to read. Perhaps even a lil' annoying... The problem people are those who never bother to proofread anything  because "Who has the time? It's just rp!" Rude, problem players...who I believe should be confronted on the grounds of poor grammar usage. And, if they are not willing to adjust their behavior, should be kicked from an rp circle.

 

The admin has the power to set the expectations for member behavior on their site, including the attitude and expectations revolving around grammar. I believe it is perfectly reasonable to have a basic grammar rule on a site and to enforce it as needed. I don't think such a rule should be used to badger people over an occasional and commonplace grammar error. Such as the misspelling of a difficult word or the misuse of "there," "their," and "they're." Likewise, I think people with fantastic grammar shouldn't look down their noses at those who are not practiced at the less commonly used rules or punctuation, such as semicolons, or purposefully ignore some rules in their writing style. I do think people should harshly judge and not tolerate those who purposefully post sloppy replies and put forth no effort to clean up or improve their writing. If they don't want to put in the time to proofread their post, why the hell should we put in the time to proofread their post just to understand it? Blergh...

 

...

I'mma stand on a soap box for a moment to stress that claiming your (general "you") frequent mistakes are just part of your "style," is trying for a cheap an' lazy excuse to not put in the effort to write better. However, on the other hand, breaking grammar rules can be part of a creative writing style. I adhere closely to grammar rules in my rp writing - proper use of commas, paragraph breaks for dialogue, no contractions in the narrative, etc. (Heheh, I don't adhere to grammar as closely when talking in text, as I'm sure you've noticed. I speak how I speak, in text or verbally. -shrug-) But I also purposefully break some rules because I like the voice those carefully crafted "mistakes" infuse into my writing. I dangle the hell out of participles, on the regular, and always in the same way and for the same effect. Breaking a rule that one knows how to follow, on purpose, and to an intended effect is style. ...Not knowing how commas fit between clauses and consistently writing long, awkward sentences because of that confusion...is not style. Forgivable in most cases, but not style.

 

[The Rebel 44]

I guess I just don't to label.  I personally believe that line between categories like "intermediate" and "advanced" is rather arbitrary.  I feel like it's one of those designations that has no clear meaning and everyone is going to interpret it differently.  You can go by word count, but this negates the idea of quality over quantity.  You can go strictly by grammar, but this disregards stylistic choices and, furthermore, just because something is grammatically perfect does not mean the writing itself is compelling or gives their rp partner enough to respond to.  I have posted with people who might have syntax and occasionally spelling mistakes or odd phrasing and derived much more enjoyment from that than posting with some people with flawless grammar.  While I understand that perpetuating "bad" grammatical habits will reinforce them, I do believe by reading and writing, a person will often start to correct these habits and their writing will improve regardless.  Even if just a little.  One of the best ways to improve writing is simply by reading.  You might see improvement merely by having a mix of writing levels on a board.  Teachers often have to deal with students from diverse socioeconomic backgrounds and cultures, or who are not native english speakers, and these all have a huge impact.   On a writing board you will still have this variability.  Obviously this is also debatable (there are definitely varying opinions on the topic) but many educators advocate pairing people of differing levels because it elevates the one at a lower level faster.  Maybe this shouldn't be applied to a writing board, but it is at least something to think about.  

 

Also, grammar is also fluid.  Language is dynamic and changes over time.  We incorporate new words and new grammar into our way of speaking.   Who knows if the rules we use now will even be around.  Maybe the rampant use of emoticons on the internet is an indication that writing will shift to writing in symbols (this is a bit extreme, but you never know).   That might not affect anything now, but I do think it makes it more difficult to argue from of a grammar prescriptivist.  

 

Stylistic choices do come into play as do writing focuses, I can tell just from our member base that people value different aspects of writing.  Style varies widely. Some place emphasis on pure description of their character and the surroundings, some on the way a character is feeling.  Some choose to write in flowery language and others prefer to follow in the vein of Orwell, or keeping descriptions minimal and to a point like Hemingway.  Even this can vary from character to character and that is part of the beauty of it. 

 

In the end, it's the board administrators to decide what they want for their board or how they want to label their board.  We call ourselves intermediate/advanced.  I do believe our writers qualify more as "advanced" but really I have no idea.   I certainly don't want to exclude people who would prefer to label themselves as intermediate.  In my experience, at least on the boards I have been on, many rpers are hypercritical of their own writing.  Some of the best writers on my board are those with the least confidence about their writing so I think it pays to be cautious at least in regards of initial labels.  People improve through writing and I have no desire to exclude people with general interest and love for writing if they make a few grammar mistakes.  I absolutely don't want to somehow hinder an rpers love for writing by nitpicking.   This isn't to say anyone necessarily does this, I assume most people do not, but I do think it's a potential concern even if it isn't the administrator's responsibility I don't think awareness can hurt.  

 

These are just my general thoughts and it's easy to say this but not carry it out into practice.  On my board, we have been fortunate enough not to be in the situation where we had to reject because the writing was incomprehensible.    Now we have, on the other hand, pended for lore violations and the like.  I do believe we would in practice reject an application rife with errors, mostly because I think they would have more difficulty getting threads so it's not like we aren't doing it as well.   I have definitely noticed that some writers do have worse luck getting threads, but this also might just relate to plotting difficulties.  I think I have a bigger problem personally when there are issues with poor reading comprehension on the part of the other rper.  I don't mind asking someone to edit if they misread, but I've also had to message someone to ask them to change something and their reading comprehension was at the level where they were asked to fix two things in a short message because they contradicted my post and then they went and fixed one but not the other.  So I get it.  I think this system is imperfect, but I guess it's kind of all we have.    I've been doing more advertising lately and it tends to come into my mind when people are requesting boards of certain levels.  I think it's more of a concern for me when it comes to those immediate labels of how to define the board rather than the application process.  I just feel a little uncomfortable qualifying the board with a label and potentially excluding some great writers.  

 

Whelp I went on way longer than I intended. I'm not really agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, to each there own. There are ideas and theories and then there is practice.  We WILL still label because that's the trend in rping and when it comes to our applications there will be more pends from lore violations etc than grammatical issues even if I notice them.  Juuuuuust putting random thoughts I've had about it all out there.  

 

TL;DR:  I am a bit uncomfortable with labeling writing quality at least in regards to how a board is initially advertised.  

Edited June 29, 2018 by The Rebel