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Why are so many people obsessed with "no stats rp"?


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This has been a big problem when looking for members for my own rp. They'll like the premise, and be interested up until the point when they find out that my community has concrete game-like mechanics. 

Here's my problem with that. In my opinion, large-scale roleplay needs stats and/or mechanics of some kind to be successful. Sure, you can get away with having no stats when it's just 1x1 rp and both players are skilled rpers who don't powergame or anything like that, but how rare is that? So-called "open" or "consent-based" rp assumes that everyone is a perfect roleplayer. Sure, it may be a good forum for collaborative storytelling, but that's an entirely different beast from roleplaying in my mind.

What are your thoughts? Am I completely wrong and no-stats rp is the best? Am I right? Somewhere in between? Let me know.

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I don't believe they are needed, per se, but I do believe it's very difficult to go without them. I've seen some sites that are statless that have been open 10+ years, so I honestly can't say they are required. However, there will be the occasional problem player *coughs*me*coughs* who will unconsciously want to unbalance the game, just because they want to see how much they can get away with.

After I get my site up and running, I want to do a thing where it involves optional stats. As in, at the start of the thread, players decide whether or not they are using stats for that specific thread. I do have a system I need to look at again for that, although I haven't tested it. Aside from benefitting those who want to and those who don't want to use stats by allowing them to use their characters on the same site and be able to play with each other in as close to harmony as it's probably going to get, it's a good way for statless players to try/get integrated into stats, or for stat players to develop their statless skills, I think.

I can't speak for too many others, but whenever I see the word "stats" I think "math" right away, and then my thoughts go something like "WAHL, BUGGER THAT THEN, I AIN'T SIGNING UP TO DO NO MATHS, I WANT TO HAVE FUN, NOT SOME BLOODY CHORE". I realize some stats are "basic" but others look like they factor in things like, distance, body weight, body type, height, length, the whole "x+y=z" triangle diagrams or whatever, wind direction, gender (i have seen sites that do things based on gender, yes) endurance, stamina, and whether or not you've killed a chicken in the last three full moons (that one is a joke as far as I know). I've seen some that, as soon as I see the words stats, it's like, HUGE red flag, because I'm terrible at math, like, I have trouble remembering that 6 and 7 add together to make 13, and although I realize once you get used to it, it's probably a lot easier, but if you're not, it's like, I guess, scarier than most people consider spiders (google the "kill it with fire" spider memes for reference)

A lot of people will also have to take breaks because of lack of muse or IRL things, and some feel that stats can hold them back, or inhibit their potentials, like, they can't just jump in and do things, they have to put sometimes months of effort into it and they don't have time for that, or the system is set up that it favors more active members, so for example an otherwise terrible rper could be on making short posts that allow them to grow fast and quickly become one of the most powerful characters on site, while somebody who is extremely good who can only get on to post once a week or so falls behind rather exponentially and it doesn't seem as fun for them when they have one of the weakest characters.

Not sure if I'm explaining how I see it all that well, so I'll stop talking now. I could go on, but I'll let others try and explain it better.

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I see no difference between collaborative storytelling and RPGs. For me, RPGs are interactive, collaborative storytelling. The rules of creative writing apply. Just that, because we are several writers, instead of one, communication should be reinforced, and negotiation, so that each of us meets the other mid-way, and the objectives of all involved writers are met in the maximum extent possible. The outcome of the story is mutually decided among writers, becoming more interesting this way. And the story started "Before the Mast" and continued on the "Caribbean Dawn" is going on for nearly eight years, without stats, and with several battles and duels negotiated this way. We had no problems with the battles, all of them made for interesting stories. You can read them if you want to.

 

I see stats as hindering creativity, because they intervene forcefully to make the characters do things which have no sense for the story, things which go against what the writers decide together to. It is as if the agent/ publisher would tell you what to write, instead of selling the story you have written.

Edited by Elena
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I don't mind stats, but I don't think they are required. As with everything, it depends on the case. They are very useful in games where combat and/or PvP are prominent, on the hand on more social based RPs they aren't all that great. Forum games aren't the best medium for combat-heavy games, so it makes sense a majority of them is statless. 

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I don't think they're necessary for a board's livelihood, however, I think they can work in settings given a good implementation. If you want to add stats to your board, feel free, though keep in mind that certain people may choose to not join your board if stats are necessary for progression in storyline and what not.

 

Me? I always liked stats and I'm going to be adding them in my next game, but I'm, also attempting to do this in a way where, "Well, we have stats, but you can still play without them." I have to work out all details of this, but thanks to my coding background, I'm going to attempt to add stats to a characters in ways that are off-hands. For example: if your character is this race and this class and blah blah blah, do some math and you have this in a stat. I'm far from this point, but that's where I'd like to get.

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I had a discussion about this with a member on my new game, actually. I was waffling between having some small tabletop elements, like stats and dice rolling because it's set in a pretty combat heavy world. However, we both agreed that "rule of cool" works best in this fandom (and it does, it has all kinds of ridiculous moves and newbs beating big bads). So in the end, I decided not to go with stats. 

 

But really, I think it's up to the admin and the kind of game they want to foster. To the OP, if that style of game is what you want, you shouldn't compromise that vision. It needs to be a RP that you're one hundred percent comfortable with. You're the one running it and it's important that it fit your vision. Otherwise, you'll end up burned out or disliking your own site. That's no good for you or the site--OR the members that do join. 

 

You'll find like-minded players. You just have to work a little harder to find them. Or look in less conventional areas. A friend of mine had a tabletop inspired RP and he got some members by posting fliers about it at local gaming stores. Try something like that! 

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In my experience, I prefer statless roleplays because math sucks and I'm lazy.

 

However, running a stat roleplay.... it's fun! It's true! I LIKE crunching the numbers, I like running it through Excel, I like have gritty data that I can pretty charts out of so my friends and I can compare our characters. Stats are useful, they help prevent certain types of god-modding, and a point-buy system can really force players to slow down and think about what their character's strengths and weaknesses are. I trust a stat roleplay to be more objectively balanced than a statless roleplay that runs on good faith.

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I prefer statless games because I like to control outcomes rather than deal with impeding or out of character factors. 

 

For instance, I have played DnD where a bard crit fails and forgets how to sing or disgusts the whole room and now the entire plan has to be revamped. However, for me, that is not how RPs are set up. 

 

Usually when I start a thread I have an idea of where it's going. "My bard charms the room while your thief gets the key off the guard so we can do this, that, and the other thread, that is being set up by this one." If my character rolls and botches... then this, that, and the other can't be started in threads before the outcome of the first thread... which seems stressful. 

 

That said, I do think stats have merit for some things. (I saw a pen site once where you had to give your dragon stats so that when they did races or fights they could be random/fair. I loved that idea.)

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As someone who has grown up playing Dungeons and Dragons as well as Pathfinder, I can understand the tendency to lean towards mechanics to ensure fairness, etc. between your various roleplayers.

 

However, what I've found in online roleplay, versus tabletop roleplay, is that online people tend to prefer freeform with guidelines than actual stats. Most people want to be able to pick up and go, and don't want to have to add math to their writing. Which I also understand. 

 

For me, however, it depends on the environment. If I anticipate a lot of combat, and i don't want a predetermined victor (or people fighting about the outcome of a combat) I would definitely implement stats. However most of my online roleplay forums tend to focus more on the development of characters, and combat is minimal, if it occurs at all. Therefore having stats doesn't make sense for most of my roleplay sites because they aren't really used. 

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I've seen both Stat-based and Stat-less systems get equally abused. Frequently. So it really all comes down to what sort of play atmosphere you want. 

 

90-something percent of the time, a combat heavy site will employ SOME sort of stat or rank system to help staff/members adhere to a guideline of expectations. And that works for RPers who are combat-oriented and like to place that above other facets of the story.  A good stat system will often herald these types of members like a bug zapper, because the combat IS the focus of the plot. Think, PvP server in an MMORPG. 

In settings were combat isn't the main focus and acts more as a....Flavor scene or plot forwarding device, a stat system can be daunting at first glance because it takes a portion of control away from the author(s) in deciding what happens as they go along. Or, to some Character-Development-orientated RPers, a stat system would seem like a useless chore because the math involved takes time away from the creative process. So in such a case, NOT having a stat system will likely have the Warzone RPers pass you over and the Intrigue Players take a second look.  IE, the PvE server. 

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I would say that stats n' dice like mechanics are required for a balanced rp, yes. I'd argue that numbers and number n' math reliant systems provide the most objectivity to any mechanic, and that objectivity is the only way any game element can be fair and balanced. Without any form of mechanics, a full free-form rp can also be fair on the surface...because everyone can just dictate what happens to and around their character with roughly equal control. Which is fair...up until someone undos something someone else wrote with a stroke of a keyboard, and with no time or effort. At least, not matching the time n' effort the other player put in.

 

Mechanics are most commonly used to balance combat, yeh, I think cuz' combat is the most obvious area of an rp in which something unwanted may happen to a character. Such as a nasty wound or death. I believe mechanics can be used to balance all aspects of an rp, to provide a fair and balanced playground for all characters and players...and without playing with the mechanics becoming a chore. Doing so would very much produce an rpg and not just an rp, which many people prefer their rp to be more a "collaborative storytelling" exercise than a "game." Yeah, like people have said here, adding a bunch of mechanics would make the forum less appealing to those who want to collaboratively write stories, but would also draw in those who are looking for a true game. S'all about what you, the creator, want out of your rpg.

 

I see a lot of people in this discussion saying that stat n' dice mechanics turn them off of a game because either the systems are intimidating, too complex or math-y to be fun, require too steep of a time commitment, and/or - my favorite argument - sucks some vital creative freedom from the player. I agree that poorly designed mechanics can be all these things, and produce a less than fun atmosphere to play in. I believe well designed stat n' dice mechanics are the exact opposite of these complaints: easy to understand at a glance, requiring minimal or no math on the player's part, reward time invested with character improvement at a reasonable and comfortable pace, and does not limit creative freedom in any arbitrary or abnormal ways. Heheheh. From the discussion in which people talk about what they dislike about game mechanics in rp, I feel like there hasn't been many - if any - rp forums with well designed mechanics. I feel like everyone is speaking from bad experiences with bad mechanics... As if there were a couple popular game-heavy rps that everyone got into, but they failed because of poor design an' now everyone has a sour taste in their mouth about game mechanics as a whole. Heh.

 

I greatly disagree with the notion that stats n' dice systems just cannot thrive in the play-by-post format. I believe stat n' dice can not only thrive on a forum, but perhaps...maybe...the flexible play schedule and open multiplayer play-by-post provides might be the environment in which stat n' dice thrives the most. I can't dedicate a ten hour block every week to a DnD group, if I am lucky enough to find a good DnD group, an' a lot of adults can't either. But I know I can dedicate one or two hours every other day to a DnD-like rpg forum, yeh.

 

Edited by Kajes
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I answered maybe. The reason is I don't think that they are required most of the time, but for combat, they could be. I once had one of my characters take part in a tournament, and neither of us could decide who should win the game, so to keep things fair, we decided that a dice roll should decide the outcome of it, otherwise we would have just kept on taking turns in to knock the other off the horse. My character was at a disadvantage anyway and the dice roll went in the favour of the other guy, which didn't bother me at all.

 

Aside from keeping it simple so that it doesn't put people off from joining the rp, you've got to consider people's honesty in getting the dice roll they have and implementing that on the board. In a table top situation, it doesn't bother me if I get a high score on my dice roll but it does online so if you do use such a system you have to make it easy to know what people actually get.

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I answered no because I would never join an entirely stat-based RPG. That is not to say they are wrong or that someone that prefers that sort of RP is wrong. It is just that, for me, RPing is a social and creative outlet. Relying totally on mechanics to determine something would stifle the creativity for me. It's a matter of preference, not right or wrong.

 

In fact, my games do use limited dice rolls to predict the outcome of a fight or race or other such event. We do it in our plotting-planning channel on Discord and keep it very simple. We then write the story however we want to.

 

Perhaps stats versus no stats also has alot to do with the RP's emphasis. Those that are more focused on novel-style storytelling probably do not need to use stats as much. We tend to plan the story, discuss how the plots within the story should play out, and then go forward with writing the tale. As game manager, I will update our episode notes with "plot points", short statements that tell everyone what needs to happen. How it happens, who is involved, etc., is usually left up to the writers.

 

It all depends on the needs of the RP. My games do not need them and we would never go to a format that was dependent on using stats. Other sites might have a really hard time doing what they do without using stats.

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