Staffing Argumentative Members.

[Anonymous 234]

So. This is something I am currently experiencing at the moment on my site. And I have seen it elsewhere in other places too. Sites I have been a member on rather than staffing.  So far it is not a major issue. But I was just wondering whether any other people have had similar issues. How you have dealt with them etc.  Or even if this sort of behavior concerns you too. The issue is as follows. There is a particular member. Who just constantly seems to want to pick an argument in chat. Or undermine people. Anything and everything people say, they have to put in their two cents worth, always, always saying that what everyone else has said, staff included, is wrong. Constantly implying that they know better than everyone, and are better than everyone.  It is very off putting and draining.  And sometimes it is hard not to snap. But I also get the feeling on occasions, that snapping is also a reaction that they want. So I do not bite.  Obviously, there are no rules against people having an opinion. That would be ridiculous. But it does concern me. Especially as I worry if it is getting to me this way. Is it/will it affect other members the same way too and drive them away? What are people's thoughts on this?

 

Anonymous poster hash: 381a7...e44

[Dragon 673]

Do they stimulate the community at all as far as in character posting and activity on the board? 

 

If no, just ban them. Get rid of them and save you and all your members the stress. 

 

If they do have any kind of presence in character then contact them privately, explain the problem, and make it clear that it either stops or they go. Reinforce it strictly. Three strikes is an out, no exceptions. Make it clear that your first reprimanding contact is the first strike. If they do it again, remind them one more time - but this time explain that further infraction will result in an immediate ban. 

 

If they push it beyond that, don't contact them again. Ban and block them. People like that behave the way they do because admin/staff don't enforce their rules/regulations. 

[Rune 1,099]

If you are a member you can get a lot done! Call them out. "I was unaware you were staff."

"I'm going to go with what staff said."

"No, what Edmund said is right."

"Hey, Argue Guy. I didn't ask you."

 

Dickish? Perhaps. Have people complained to staff? Sometimes staff will think that maybe a problem isn't as bad as they think it is because everyone else is putting up with it.

 

If you are staff...

Call them on their shit 

"Argue, this is a matter of how we intend to run the site. If you'd like to offer suggestions or opinions you can pm me."

"Let staff do their job, please, and answer questions."

"No, that's incorrect. I think you are confusing site lore with something else."

 

If all else fails: ban them. If all they're doing is picking fights then they aren't worth having around.

[Quell 249]

I am mushy on the inside, so I'd say PM them. Just toss them a quick "Just a reminder about our policy on niceness" warning. Or maybe a "Please remember to be positive and welcoming in the chat."

 

You might title the PM "Formal Warning" to get across that they're doing something wrong without being rude or dickish. 

 

I run RP sites like businesses, so I think of professional composure as important. If an employee or customer is being inappropriate you pull them to the side and give them a talk, if the issue continues, you dismiss them. Same with a customer, rude is one thing, but every store has a security team for a reason.

 

If they persist on being nasty after a warning, then I would ban them. But some people and cultures are not gentle. Bluntness could just be what they percieve as acceptable.

[CovertSphinx 710]

Some people just have the natural ability to make you want to punch them in the face with their snide arrogance and need to present themselves as the smartest person in the room in order to compensate for feeling insignificant in their own lives. 

Then again, some people are just blunt speakers and don't really have the ability to filter in the "finesse" of subtle implications. 

 

 You could always reach out to the person and be like, "Hey dude, do you like, mean to be a giant douchnozzle on purpose? Because it seems you always have to like, pick a fight with everyone". 
If they come back with something like "Oh I'm sorry, you guys just can't handle my blunt honesty. It's not being a dick if I'm right", it's time to just lay the banhammer down and accept the "omg this snowflake board banned me" that he/she is likely to cry to other boards. They're not worth the stress. 

[Uaithne 543]

One of the greatest flaws I see in administrators is that people are too afraid to stand up for themselves and their boards because something isn't specifically in the rules.  There are many grey areas in between the written bullet points of the guide book that folks are afraid to touch.  And it's hard because the people who are willing to chip away at you by navigating that grey area are also the same people who are going to say, "But it's not in the rules!"

 

But, see, it doesn't have to be in the rules.  Your obligation, if you will, is to take care of your community, and if there are people who are destroying your community, you need to address it.  Allowing the rest of the members to shun them by not playing with them, or assuming the problem member is going to get bored and walk away, isn't the best way to handle these sorts of situations.

 

Someone says, "I'm not breaking any rules!"

You say, "Not directly, but you are upsetting the atmosphere.  Rules are created to make the site amiable and flowing smoothly.  Your behavior, while not breaking any specific rule, is interfering with the amiable nature of this board."

 

If this person hasn't been properly reprimanded yet, it would be courteous to talk with them before banning.  As @CovertSphinx says, there are people who aren't able to articulate themselves well or they don't understand the consequences of their behavior.  It can be hard when we don't have people that we can visually see and monitor for reactions.  But if you take this path, you need to be able to be clear with them what the problem is.  You also have to be respectful about it.

 

"Hey, Member, you have been behaving in a way that's not appropriate for this community.  Picking fights, undermining staff and your fellow members, and constantly contradicting people during discussion is not conducive for a community atmosphere.  This behavior must end.  Please let me know if you have any questions.  Have a good day. -Anonymous."

[Lawman 88]

To expand on the points covered by @CovertSphinxand @Uaithne, I'd also add that these people also have a tendency to be manipulative like that - namely they're good at playing the game where because they technically "have a point", the staff can't silence or ban them without coming off as "unreasonable". I.e. tone-policing, censorship of dissent, or putting more stock on "feelings" over "facts". 

 

And as such they're often good at guilting/intimidating others into putting up with their presence much longer than they have to. So yeah, that kind of behaviour warrants a "ban with extreme prejudice". 

[Morrigan 1,826]

2 hours ago, Uaithne said:

One of the greatest flaws I see in administrators is that people are too afraid to stand up for themselves and their boards because something isn't specifically in the rules.  There are many grey areas in between the written bullet points of the guide book that folks are afraid to touch.  And it's hard because the people who are willing to chip away at you by navigating that grey area are also the same people who are going to say, "But it's not in the rules!"

 

There is a guide for that:

 

[JD Hart 72]

I actually had this issue before and if it helps, this is how I dealt with it -

 

I had a member who wasn't argumentative as such but liked to push back. You know? Like -

Member: Can my character XYZ

Me: Hmm... that's a little out of context so I would probably say no *gives good reasons* - however... *offers alternative similar plot to help encourage plotting that works in the right setting*.

Member: *ignores alternative plot and contradicts or disagrees with "good reasons" given*

 

They didn't do it rudely and they were only a little abrupt, but it was like every idea they had they were fixated on and didn't wanna budge.

 

Now, I'm a pretty flexible admin (those are not my words but the words of my community) I like to help people with their plots and I clearly spend a lot of time trying to help people write what they want to within the realm of the site. I very, very, very rarely have to pull out the "Not historically accurate" card. So, when I do, please be assured that this is a big deal.

 

So, anyway... when this person would push back on the general chat (we used Discord for a lot of our OOC), I would say something like "you make some good points, I'll DM you." and would move the conversation to private. That is the first step.

 

Once the conversation is out of the general view, however, this was what I found to be key - DO NOT BUDGE! If you have made a decision, and you have voiced that decision in public view of your other members, the result when you and this member come out of private chat needs to be exactly what you initially laid out - so make sure what you say in general/public is what you're going to stick to.

 

Also - never rise to the bait. You're right to keep your head. Some people who are like this just want the attention. By moving the convo out of public you have cut them off from their general pedestal. And if you then keep your cool in private as well, that's their last port of attention-seeking cut off. I just would keep repeating my reasons (in more detail if need be) until they either got it or they got so worked up that you have to politely suggest "then perhaps, if we're not offering you the opportunities you're looking for, this isn't the site for you?"

 

I have never had to ban or kick off a member. If I ever have an argument with someone my go-to standing is... "This is how the site is. This is what our community, as a whole, expects. I respect your ideas and your opinions but, in order to keep the setting and environment that our community is expecting this is how we expect our members to communicate. If this doesn't work for you, then I'm really, really sorry but maybe we aren't the place for you. It is entirely up to you - we would love to still have you - but some sites just aren't for everyone..."

 

And then I end up having that same conversation as many times as is necessary before they either change their behaviour or decide that they'd rather leave than be pulled up all the time.

 

 

This is how I end conversations with difficult people though. I always start them innocently. If you go in for the discipline right from the off, people get defensive and will then become more argumentative and more combative. I would start with something like - "Hey there, I thought it was just me reading it wrong and being over sensitive, but a few other members have mentioned this to me so I thought I'd let you know.... I'm sure you don't mean what you say to come across argumentative or difficult 😄 We're all friends here! But I just wanted to let you know that sometimes how you type can come across quite abrupt. At the moment, it's all good but I'm worried you might accidentally offend someone or cause people to not want to plot with you (which is obviously the LAST thing we want). Maybe try re-reading your messages before posting them (I have to do that sometimes - especially when I'm typing fast lol). It's annoying, but when we talk in type it doesn't always come across the right way, am I right? lol... Anyway - just thought I would let you know so you can correct before it becomes a problem 😄 "

 

And then when there is next a problem you go something like - "Hey... you know that tone thing we talked about and I said I wanted to let you know before it became a problem? I'm really sorry, but it kinda just became one... I've had a member upset by your tone and it's made them feel unwelcome. I've assured them that you didn't MEAN to be offensive or abrupt in what you said - it was just conveyed wrong. But I promised them I would speak to you so that you could adjust things accordingly. I know this is now the second time I'm mentioning this to you, so please don't let there be a third (I really hate being a meanie-pants and just want us all to get along!!)..."

 

Then it's the third time that you bring out the - this is causing an issue and perhaps this isn't the site for you - I'm happy to help and work with you on anything you might need in order to fix the problem but if you aren't willing to try then perhaps you need to find a place that caters more for you style of communication.

 

 

Maybe I'm too nicey nice - an admittedly each of these convos have then lasted several hours sometimes so my Mods keep telling me I need to be firmer and not waste so much time on people like this. But at the same time, I've never had a pissed off member come back and bite me on the but, or spread bad things about my site on the internet (which I know some people have had bad experiences with and why people are often nervous of the ban button).

 

Hope this helps! 😄

[Jaxx 317]

If I'm a member, I'll message my concerns to someone on staff and say how this person is making me uncomfortable or whatever the case may be. And if they take no steps to address someone with this kind of behaviour, I bounce, because I've lost trust in them to handle member-created issues. The concern I have then is that this behaviour is a prelude to harassment and bullying from this member, sometimes with an added dose of admin favouritism, because I've seen that shitshow before and I don't want to repeat it. But that's just the way I roll, so YMMV when it comes to being another member in this situation. 

 

If I'm staff, things are a lot easier for me. They cut it out or they get banned. I send them a message outlining their behaviour with specific examples, explain why it's inappropriate or disruptive, and tell them that if they don't stop it they will be asked to leave. If members have come to me, I'll say they've made other people uncomfortable and that I prioritise the comfort of my member base above all else. Never have I seen someone doing this without being fully aware that their actions are wrong. Oversharing or being abrupt, yeah, that's subjective and some people don't realise they're doing it, but that's not really the attitude you described in your post. 

 

And now they have been told exactly what I won't allow and exactly what will happen if they keep trying to do it. Whatever happens next, they know the consequences. Sometimes they rein it in. Sometimes they leave on their own. And sometimes they decide that they can do whatever they want, or they can look for new ways to misbehave. If they leave or get banned, I put a brief note in my Discord or chatbox for my members. I apologise that such behaviour happened, promise that I won't tolerate anything that makes them uncomfortable, and encourage members to come to me if anyone in the future makes them uncomfortable. 

[Indy 23]

I've met varying degrees of the argumentative member. One was a good friend, which simplified matters since I just told him to knock it off and his argumentative streak turned into an on-site joke we were all in on, but it was still annoying in the moment. That's one of those "ended well for everyone involved" situations. Usually I just tell people like it is, but if their argumentative tone is fairly neutral/curious, I'll engage a little and see what they have to say. I'm the sort of person who enjoys a little discussion so I don't necessarily find it a bother always. HOWEVER, for the people who just. don't. get. it. I tend to tell it like it is, summarise reasons why what they're thinking wont work, and then just say "I'm not going to discuss this further, I've given you my answer" or something similar, depending on what the discussion was about. Usually people who get butthurt about not getting their way wont last and those who get that things can't always go their way find this middle ground between discussing/arguing out their thoughts and settling down.

 

I'd prefer to be straight with them and tell them I wont humour them rather than be led in endless circles that just wastes my time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[xexes 108]

The traits that you described in your post sound an awful lot like narcissism - someone who always has to be right and better than everyone else, to the point of putting down others and being generally toxic. They perform mental gymnastics in their head and believe the things they come up with.   There are many people who will bar their own narcissistic family members from their own lives, much less a narcissistic participant in a hobby.

 

But not everyone who finds this thread will have such a person on their hands. So the general advice is to (1) determine if it is worth it to give the person a chance to change and (2) if it is worth it, next to determine if they can change, given a chance. 

[Rivfader 76]

Even if they do stimulate site activity and post a lot, I wouldn't hesitate to ask them to leave/ban them. Their behavior sounds really annoying and bothersome, frankly. If it bothers you as a staff member, you can be sure it's bothering some of your members as well. They just mightn't have said anything as of yet.

 

If you don't want to ban them right away, I'd politely but firmly let them know their behavior is making the community uncomfortable and to knock off the constant argumentative tone. If that doesn't work, then my next move would be to ask them to leave. For me, roleplay sites are supposed to be a nice, chillaxed safe haven for writing. When you have someone like that around, it ruins the atmosphere totally.

 

When I first started admining, I was really lenient with people like these and they always ended up ruining my communities in the end. Just know that you don't owe anyone anything and there's nothing wrong with kicking someone who annoys you and other members from your site.

[Shieb 47]

I had a person like this on a site. He sucked. I told him to knock it off, and he complained to the other members of the site - one of which was his friend, and all of which defended me, bless their hearts. After getting kicked off, he threatened to say mean things about me. I was dumb enough to let him back on based on everything around that threat (pleading, promises, etc), and it didn't get better.

 

Let this person know what they're doing is inappropriate, but don't be me. Don't let them stay if they have no interest in changing.