Staffing When is it fair to ask someone to leave?

[Anonymous 234]

At what point is it fair to ask someone to leave the board?  Does there need to be a major inciting incident?    Specifically, what if there are no recent rule violations exactly, but passive aggressive behavior that is frankly even more stressful to deal with because it keeps coming up, but is not as easy to determine intent and is sort of the I know it when I see it type of thing.  The staff wants to be fair but the attitude (the disdain for the board seems seems pretty clear) has gotten extremely uncomfortable and makes some of other board members uncomfortable as well.  He isn't particularly active on the board, but is in some key places which means there could be an effect on site plots. I certainly know it would be a sigh of relief to the staff and a few members if he left, but that also seems a bit of a terrible thing to even think.  It feels a bit like the member is towing the line deliberately, but I also worry I am no longer able to be rational about it due to my own discomfort with conflict.  My other staff members are in agreement about our interpretations of this behavior, but even so we are all at a loss of the best course of action because our board in general has always been quite pleasant and drama-free and we wish to be as fair as possible.  I am not comfortable nor do I think it is fair to provide any more detail so... this situation aside, when is it okay to ask someone to leave?  Or In what situations have you asked someone to leave?

Anonymous poster hash: d7e19...f2f

[Yume 99]

It's appropriate to ask someone to leave when they are threatening the community of your site.

 

It doesn't have to be direct rulebreaking. It doesn't have to be some big thing. I was discussing asking someone to leave just yesterday over passive aggressiveness and a fit in the discord channel - we didn't, but will if the behavior continues.

 

At the end, it boils down to that. Is the behavior continuing? Are they making you/staff/and other members uncomfortable? Based on your description - yes. Then it's appropriate to ask them to leave. Someone who is deliberately pushing on the edge of the line isn't protected just because they didn't cross the line. If it's a continuous thing, if it's making things harder/more stressful it is perfectly acceptable to ask them to stop or leave. In fact, that's one of the most important parts of being staff in my opinion - maintaining the community you want.

 

Edit: also, I would ask yourself if it's fair to the other members of the site to allow the behavior to continue

[Beanie 27]

If a person is causing stress to your staff team and making the board atmosphere more negative, it's time to ask them to leave. An RP board is less a court of law and more your house - someone is constantly making people miserable in your house? It's time to stop inviting them. 

 

I used to be a "people have to break the rules and be warned to be asked to leave" admin, but then we had to ask someone to leave for cumulative behavioral problems rather than a major incident. This was a lot like your experience seems to be - they were super passive-aggressive, etc. Asking them to leave immediately improved the board experience for the entire staff team and a lot of members. I still believe in warning people once or twice, (and this person had been warned,) but if someone is detrimental to the community, it's time for them to go. 

[Shades 676]

In general: when is it okay to ask a member to leave? Whenever you want, it's your site.

 

More specifically: the second someone - anyone, staff or member - starts avoiding the site due to this member's behavior, it should raise a red flag. If more than one person starts feeling like they don't want to be around because this person is making them uncomfortable - and if staff agrees that the attitude is a problem -, I believe that's when they have overstayed their welcome. 

 

Plots can be revamped or tweaked, but a site can't thrive if the good, rule-abiding members are leaving because one member is causing discomfort and not being dealt with.

 

If you and the staff feel like being fair, choose the one of you who is not afraid to have the difficult conversations and have them send the member a very clear PM, something along the lines of: "This is your behavior, it doesn't fit what we want to see, stop it or leave" (in more diplomatic terms). If you want to give them this last chance (you don't have to and I could argue that you might not want to), put a set-in-stone deadline up and make it clear they can't behave for (time set) and then go back to their old ways and still stay on the site. If you go that route, though, you'll probably have to ban then as soon as they step out of line.

 

But honestly? I'd just cut my losses and ask them to leave now. You can be sure that your good members are watching, and probably wondering why this trouble-maker matters so much they have to suck it up and deal. Even if they won't tell you, you might see the members who don't cause any trouble showing up less and less or even leaving without a word because this person has been making everyone uncomfortable and (from where they can see) staff is not handling it.

[clipsed 231]

You can always ask someone to leave your board for any reason, especially if the community (not just you individually) are irked by the behaviour. That said, actually doing so is easier said than done! I think there are three main approaches here:

1. I am not happy in my sandbox, so you need to leave it now, please.
2. Attempt rehabilitation, then give them the boot.
3. Ignore it.

Option three is not an actual option as they are impacting your enjoyment of the board and those of the players. Option one is probably the most confrontational, which is why I've never been able to go with it (much though I've wanted to some times!), but if you can't pinpoint specific behaviours to ask them to change, is probably your best bet. If you can pinpoint specific behaviours, try something along the lines of,

 

Hi [Player],

We're happy that you've made a home on [board], but unfortunately some of your behaviours have been making the board members and the staff team [emotion - consider uncomfortable, stressed, etc.]. [Detail behaviours, avoid "general attitude" because that may bug you but is harder for them to fix]. We hope that you'll choose to work on these areas and continue to be a part of our community, but understand if we might not be the best fit.

 

Cheers,

The Staff Team

 

Tying changing the behaviour to continuing to be in the community implies "shape up or ship out" without throwing it in their face, and you open the door for them to leave of their own accord. You've also clearly expressed that their behaviour is not okay, so if it continues you have a more "legitimate" (not that it ever wasn't legitimate!) reason to give them the boot.

[Garmr 106]

I agree with @clipsed on this. Sometimes the Player doesn't realize he/she is being a tool and is capable of rehabilitation, but be very specific on what it is that is bothering the community. Best case scenario they realize that they're hurting people and curb the behavior. I had to inform one of our members that I didn't appreciate his rudeness or immature sense of humor and so far we've managed to continue peaceably.

 

I would only add that you should mentally/emotionally brace yourself for hostility because few people take well to being told their behavior is inappropriate and unacceptable. Also, do not ignore that gut feeling you have that the player is dancing on the edge of rule breaking just to see how much a fool they can be without getting punished for it... its probably spot on.

[Morrigan 1,826]

 

[Rhindeer 217]

I would read what you've written...

 

what if there are no recent rule violations exactly, but passive aggressive behavior that is frankly even more stressful to deal with because it keeps coming up,

 

the disdain for the site seems pretty clear

 

has gotten extremely uncomfortable and makes some of other board members uncomfortable as well

 

I certainly know it would be a sigh of relief to the staff and a few members if he left

 

...And say that all signs point to "kick them out".

 

This is the sort of thing that we in management call a "quality of life" issue. If it's adversely affecting the experience of other people, and ourselves, even if it's not technically breaking any rules, we can tell you to GTFO. And that's how I view my own games.

 

I view my games as my living room. You can come hang out and chill with us, but as soon as you start making everyone else uncomfortable or being rude in my own damned house, you can leave. I ain't got time for that bullshit. They don't need to violate a specific rule, and you're under no obligation to cite the rules to them.

 

You can literally just tell someone, "Hey, this isn't working out, so I'm gonna ask you to leave. You have X Time to gather up any writing you want to save, after which you'll be banned from the site." And then follow up and do exactly that. Boom, done. You'll thank yourself, and so will your members.

 

Too many admins are so damned shy about this, and wear the fact that they've never had drama or never banned anyone like some weird badge of honor. That just tells me they're either exceptionally lucky, or that there IS probably a lot of drama festering under the surface because they don't take care of things. If people are toxic, get rid of them. Your community will thank you.

 

You can always choose to give them a second chance, if you think talking to them might yield results. But you are not obligated to give them a second chance. Your post sounds like you have reached the point of "100% DONE", and that's totally fair. Sometimes, giving someone a second chance works out for the better, if they seem a personality that can take it maturely. But sometimes, it ends badly, and results in them playing nice for a little bit before returning to their same old BS. It's all about how you feel--do you want to take that risk? And risk inflicting that on your members some more? Or would you rather just be done with it?

Edited August 26, 2018 by Viscount Rhi-Rhi

[Arceus 1,082]

I just need to add this one thing, because everyone forgets this:

Staff are absolutely not excluded from the community header. You are a part of your community, too.
You are not some separate special being that does not matter. In fact, I might go so far as to say at least the main admin is the centrepoint of the community, is the standard and foundation upon which the community stands and grows, and matters a little more. Further, if you are not comfortable, you'll start resenting your site. Do not run a board you do not want to run, with members on it you do not want there. You will hate it, it will show, and it will impact the site, even if this member alone does not. Don't let yourself stay unhappy, stressed, or uncomfortable on your own site.

 

You are quality control. Never be afraid to act as quality control, and never forget that you are a member, too, and all it takes is one member being uncomfortable for you to say, "Enough," even if that member is you. Maybe especially if that member is you.

[xexes 108]

I just wanted to say that back in the day we had some members who weren't right for the site but weren't doing anything inherently wrong. We let it go on for so long that our members were mad at us staff for not doing something about it. When we finally banned them, we realized that we'd lost a lot of members. Some members came back. Most didn't. 

[Shieb 47]

To your question, on its own:

It's fair to ask someone to leave the board any time they do not fit the community you are trying to build. Sometimes this will be for things much more understandable, like someone being just immature enough to make people uncomfortable without being offensive. Sometimes it will be something obvious, like an abusive troll. You don't need an incident, an excuse, or a rule to cite. An admin's job is to build and protect the culture they want to see. To do that, you will sometimes have to ask even nice people to leave, and that's okay. Both parties can be happy in different playgrounds.

My thoughts on your post:
Passive-aggressive and disdainful tendencies towards the very people they're playing with are qualities you do not want on your site. Ever. Those things need to be addressed, and if the member won't/can't change, they don't need to be on your site. The trouble member won't be forever wounded and broken from being asked/made to leave; it's just a hobby.

 

It's fair to understand that someone who stresses your site out is bad for the site. It's fair to tell someone to knock off their toxic behaviour or leave. It's fair to ban them if they refuse. It's also fair to ban some members without warning if they're abusive, trolling, or similarly inhumane. The rude, the arrogant, and the unkind have not earned the right to stay where they are disruptive. The best of us treat these members kindly, but fairly - creating distance because we are not obliged to tolerate them, and suffer for our tolerance.

 

The member is toeing the line you have drawn by allowing them to act that way. That doesn't mean they're acting appropriately; it means they've learned if they act that way, you'll still let them stay/get away with it.

 

Don't worry about being irrational. If it was personal, via your relationship, or trauma, or triggers, maybe you'd have to worry about your judgement. Reading all the other responses here, rest assured, your judgement isn't in question.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Shieb
Forgot to erase the quote

[Jaxx 317]

What everyone else has said above is pretty spot on. There's no ranking or points system or checklist when it comes to bad behaviour. A member doesn't have to have x amount of infractions before they're warned or asked to leave. Honestly, I wish staff members in general would be quicker to ask people to leave when they're not breaking rules but still making people uncomfortable. Not "you've messed up once, get out and never come back", cause that's just a dick move. But it's like a faucet dripping - tiny bit after tiny bit isn't bad at first, but then it drives you crazy. Plus, I've never seen a member who bothers just one person. Chances are that quite a few people want this person gone but nobody wants be the one to ask that they be removed or moderated. 

[Sage 289]

Everyone's had some great advice here, and I think they're all on the same page. My only addition is along the lines of what @xexes said - don't let it fester. Don't let it go so long that your members don't believe you're handling the situation. I've been in this situation before and  a large portion of my members didn't agree with the way it was handled by staff. It caused a giant rift in the community because we waited so long to act and, when we finally did, it didn't have the effect that a lot of people hoped it would. That site has since fragmented.

 

In the end, do what you know is best for the community. And stand your ground. Listen to your community and note how it's changed since this person started affecting it negatively. And be prepared for some backlash. I'm not saying you'll see any - in most cases of removing a member, the repercussions are minor at most. But occasionally you'll see something you're not prepared for. So just have a plan going into it and clear guidelines for your staff on how to handle problem members. Trust me  - having a plan will make you 150% more confident in yourself.

[Lawman 88]

Another point I'd like to add is, I understand that being raised in a law-abiding society (as is the case for those of us who live in developed, first-world nations) often instill in us a similar sense of lawfulness, which is probably the reason stuff like a "three strikes" rule and the like exist. It's (I believe) out of a sense of lawfulness and respect for Due Process that's drilled into us by the society we live in. 

 

And while that is all right and good for public institutions and registered businesses, one must ultimately realise that for a roleplaying community, one is running it not as a business or an institution, but as a private individual. Due Process need not apply.

 

Basically, think of being a site admin as less of providing a service, and more like being the host of a house party, and the members less of a customer base and more of your party guests. If a guest is being rude and disrespectful to the host and their fellow guests, one need not bend over to continue to entertain that guest. 

[Deep Sea 326]

On 8/26/2018 at 1:20 PM, Anonymous said:

At what point is it fair to ask someone to leave the board?

 

When you want them gone.

 

Period. Full stop.

 

Listen to Sith, Sith is wise. If you are the board owner, it's your board, and your hobby. It's your little metaphorical treehouse in the backyard with the No Girls/Boys/Adults sign nailed on the trunk. You don't need a reason to kick a person from your board, honestly.  People get kicked from 4chan all the time for shits and giggles.

 

If you feel guilty, stop and think about why.  I've personally found that I conflate a successful RP with self-worth. I hate to kick people, because it doesn't jive with the image I like to project. But there's seven billion people in the world and you don't have the time to spare everyone's feelings.

 

"You're being a little shit and we don't want you here anymore. Go away, killjoy."